41

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claimed by the Minister of Lands, and I should have to put in Hansard a sketch of the two men's hands doing the work. But, unfortunately, lam limited to the meagre resource of my tongue to depict the laborious process. And, Sir, this captain is in command of a vessel carrying living souls every day on the coast of New Zealand, and that is how he claimed his certificate of competency." If you will tell me where there is anything there to point to Wellington, I shall be pleased. 270. You will notice that Mr. Hutcheson says that he is informed by a citizen. Would you not suppose that that referred to a citizen of Wellington ?—No. 271. Although he is a citizen of Wellington?— Mr. Hutcheson having been an officer himself, and a seaman, and acquainted with captains and officers and those connected with the marine of the colony, I should not say there was the slightest indication to identify Wellington with it. The " Duchess " is not a coastal boat. 272. But Captain Allman held examinations nowhere but in Wellington ?—There is nothing there about Captain Allman holding examinations. He was the last man in Wellington I would suspect of giving way and doing what he did. 273. Did Captain Allman hold any examinations anywhere except in Wellington ? —I do not think so. 274. Then if Captain AUman held no examinations except in Wellington, could he inform you about examinations -held anywhere except in Wellington ?—Certainly not. 275. Why did you send for Captain Allman unless you thought it was a Wellington case?— Because he was the Head Examiner. 276. Was he the Head Examiner?—He was the Chief Examiner and Nautical Adviser. 277. You said there was no Chief Examiner—that it was only a phrase ?—The question put by Mr. Travers was, whether there was any law or regulation which entitled the Government to appoint or designate an officer as Chief Examiner, to which I replied that I did not know whether there was any law or not. 278. Can you tell me whether Captain Allman is informed about examinations anywhere except in Wellington?—-I should think that Captain Allman would draw up the papers, just as the Inspector of Schools or the Professors of the University would draw them up on certain subjects. 279. Your analogy is not correct, because Professors of a University also examine the candidates ?—I took it that Captain Allman, being the Chief Examiner or Nautical Adviser, would have the responsibility cast upon him. 280. Do you not know that if an examination is held in Dunedin the Examiner reports whether the candidates have passed or not, and the papers are sent to the Chief Clerk of the Marine Department? —But I am still of opinion that Captain Allman would draft the papers. 281. After drafting the papers, would they not pass out of his possession, never to return again ? —Yes ; but I take it that we have in this department all the papers, because the papers must come to it before it issues the certificate, and if you wantsd to-morrow to find out if the candidate had passed you would have to go to the Marine Department, and Captain Allman would have had control and access to those papers. 282. Who is in charge of the Department ?—Mr. Glasgow. 273, Who is next in charge ?—Mr. Allport; but Captain Allman had his own position there as Chief Nautical Adviser. 284. To put the matter on an equal footing, Captain Allman would have equal knowledge with Mr. Glasgow and Mr. Allport. Would he have anything to do with granting certificates in respect of examinations in Dunedin or Christchurch ? —Nothing further than that if the papers came to Wellington, and he went through them, if he saw anything on those papers which he considered necessary to bring before Mr. Glasgow, before the issue of the certificate, it would be his duty to do it. Whether that has been the course followed I cannot tell you. But I have here his appointment in the Gazette of 1884, signed " J. G. Ward," in which he is appointed Nautical Adviser and Chief Examiner. 285. Then, you were wrong in your statement? —No, lam not. I said, when asked the question by Mr. Travers, that I could not say whether this was done according to law and the regulations. lam not a walking encyclopedia. I said I could not tell whether it was done by regulation or law. All I could say was that he was appointed Chief Examiner. 286. The point is this : whether the Examiners in Dunedin, Auckland, Christchurch, and Wellington are not all independent of one another, and have the right to grant, or refrain from granting certificates ?—No certificate can be granted except by Mr. Glasgow. 287. I want to know why you waited for information until you saw Captain Allman ? —Because if Captain Allman said he knew nothing about it, as he did, the next question would be, Have you any idea whether such a thing is possible ? Is there any officer under you who would be guilty of such an irregularity ? 288. Has not Mr. Glasgow longer experience of the office than Captain Allman ?—Yes. I had seen Mr. Glasgow, and he told me he had no conception of it. The first man I spoke to was Mr. Hall-Jones. I then sent for Captain Allman, and, finding that Captain Allman was not in Wellington, I saw Mr. Glasgow, and Mr. Glasgow said he had no conception of it. 289. You sent for Mr. Glasgow after you found that Captain Allman was out of town ?—The next day, I think it was. At all events, I saw Mr. Glasgow before I saw Captain Allman, and he said he had no conception that such a thing was possible : and there was so much friction—there had been so much jostling and hustling, and so much pressure had been brought to bear about Captain Edwin and Sir Arthur Douglas, and Mr. Hutcheson had told me about these men who had been hustled out of their examinations—that I took it from that this accusation was made owing to the feeling that had been created in consequence of these things, and it was only natural. A candidate had applied for examination, and Captain Edwin had made a 6-H. 26.