31

H.—26

38. That is not suggested. The suggestion is that the papers were shown to him either by Mr. Allport or Captain Allman, and by that means Captain Yon Sohoen was enabled to make the disclosure alleged ?—Mr Allport said he had satisfied himself from the papers that it was so; but how Captain Yon Schoen knew it was so, I cannot say. 39. Now Captain Yon Schoen had twenty years' experience as a navigation teacher, and I presume knew the regulations applying to a service certificate ?—Yes. 40. And you told the Commissioners that he accompanied Captain Jones on the day in question ?—I know that Captain Yon Schoen was present on one occasion. 41. And can you say whether Captain Yon Schoen claimed before you that Captain Jones was entitled to a service certificate ?—Yes; no doubt about it. 42. There was no discussion before your departure for England as to the examination of Captain Jones ? —No ; I knew that they had been to see Mr. Hall-Jones about it before I left, and that is why, of course, I said get it settled. I knew they were still at it. Mr. Seddon cross-examined by Mr. Gray, on behalf of Captain Jones. 48. Mr. Gray.] You have told the Commission, Mr. Seddon, that some considerable interest was being taken in Captain Jones's application for a service certificate ? —Yes. 44. You considered the matter yourself ?—I was between the Minister and Captain Jones. 45. I understand that you were seen by some of Captain Jones's friends, and you considered it again yourself anew? —I considered it, as the deputation came before me as Prime Minister. 46. A deputation waited upon you in connection with this matter ? —Yes. 47. And in consequence of the views put before you by the deputation, you referred the matter to Captain Allman ?—Yes; there has always been a doubt in my mind as to whether Captain Jones had the service qualification. 48. You still have that doubt ?—Yes. 49. You are not satisfied, Mr. Seddon, that Captain Jones was not entitled by reason of his service to a service certificate ? —That is the doubt that has always been in my mind. It is quite possible that the department might err on the right side, but the Minister is quite right in supporting the department. But if the service could be proved, then it was the duty of the department to do justice to Captain Jones. 50. Then you admit that if Captain Jones is right, he should get his certificate ?—-That is right. 50a. In point of fact, you telegraphed from Auckland that you thought Jones was entitled to what he wanted? —Yes. 51. That was your view when you telegraphed to Mr. Hall-Jones ? —That is the view I have always held, subject, of course, to proof of his qualifications. 52. As to qualification, Mr. Seddon, I think you had no doubt ?—I have no doubt whatever that Captain Jones is a much superior man to many others holding certificates. He has the practical knowledge, but technically he was barred on account of the regulation. 53. You told the Commission there are a great many captains holding masters' certificates who are less qualified than Captain Jones ?—Yes. We had to refuse one the other day—a man who is simply in charge of a fishing-vessel trading between Stewart's Island and Invercargill. According to a proviso in the Act of 1894 a man can claim a certificate if he has proved service in a 15-ton vessel for three years—the same certificate for which Captain Jones is applying. Compare the responsibilities of the two captains, and the comparison is all in favour of Captain Jones. The certificate referred to was refused, but if the applicant were to apply for a mandamus I believe we would be forced to give him the certificate. 54. The late Captain Fairchild expressed to you, Mr. Seddon, the opinion that Captain Jones was highly qualified ? —Yes, on more than one occasion. 55. And Captain Fairchild was an officer of very great experience, and upon whose opinion you would place great reliance ?—Yes. 56. Captain Allman had made the same statement to you ?—Yes, and reduced it to writing. 57. And, moreover, owing to your own knowledge of Captain Jones, and the opinions of your officers, Captains Fairchild and Allman, you are satisfied that he (Jones) was a competent seaman ?—Yes. 58. And you have seen nothing to alter your view?— No. 59. And he has seen considerable service?— Yes. A good many captains have spoken to me about him, and recommended him for a service certificate. At the same time, the regulations debarred me from giving the certificate. 60. You produced yesterday a statutory declaration made by Captain Jones ?—Yes. 60a. You know the circumstances of how that declaration came to be sent to the department? —No, I do not. 61. You know it came from Captain Allman, and that it was put in in support of Captain Allman's second statement? —Yes ; Captain Allman's letter says so in effect. The fact is, Captain Allman got himself into trouble in doing a favour for Captain Jones, and Captain Allman was called upon to explain his conduct. Captain Jones very naturally helped Captain Allman at his request. 62. You said, Mr. Seddon, that some of the statements in that declaration are, in point of fact, incorrect? —No doubt about it. 63. How about the trip to Day's Bay in the 'Duchess': do you remember it ?—Yes, certainly. 64. And the production of the stimulant ? —Yes. 65. Did you have any conversation with Captain Jones on that occasion ? —No. I might have made a jocular remark, such as " How are you getting on, old chap?" or something of that sort. 66. Did you know that he had the certificate at that time ?—No, I did not know.