119

H.—2

238. Do you think the district clerks in one place should get house-allowance and the men in another place should not, or should all get alike?—lt was the rule of the service. 239. I ask you, do you think it a fair way to treat men—to give the district clerk in one place house-moneys and not give it to a district clerk in another place ?—Decidedly I do. It depends on the place. For instance, Ido not think it would be fair to give the men in Napier and New Plymouth the same pay as a man in Wellington. 240. You would have a sliding-scale ?—As far as the granting of house-allowance is concerned I agree with you. What I mean is you should not put a man in a small place on the same-footing as the man in a large place. 241. lam talking about house-allowances?—l maintain that the man who has to pay 16s. or 17s. a week is entitled to more than the man at New Plymouth, who only has to pay 10s. a week. 242. Did I not offer you a house to live in when you were shifted here?— You offered me a shanty where no decent man would live. 243. Did no one live in it after that ?—No one lived in it after that. 244. Did a man live in it up to that time ? —Yes ; and one of his children died of typhoid. You know the place was not fit for any one to live in. I say you promised continually to do what you could, and you kept on promising till 1895, when you informed me you could not do any more. Ido not say you did not do what you could. All I say is, lam my Is. a day out ever since. 245. One of the men whom you remarked had the Is. a day was transferred to the Civil Service from the Police Force ? He was. He was transferred to the Civil Service at a salary of £275, as district clerk. 246. He was specially transferred on a special rate of pay ? —Yes. 247. And he has been on that rate of pay ever since ? —No. He was transferred, first of all, to the Civil Service from the police, at a salary of £275, in 1887, I think it was. He was retrenched from the Force as district clerk, and he was then reappointed as first-class sergeant, and these allowances were given, and they were given to the four centres at the same time. 248. You say he was not on the same pay ?—He was not, because the allowances and all only make him up to the £240. 249. Any way, he was an exceptional man, because he was brought from the Civil Service ?— He was; but Sergeant Ellison was not. 250. The Chairman.] What was the name of this man ?—That was Sergeant Bell. 251. Colonel Hume.] You know Sergeant Bell could not do police work now? —I do not know that he could not. 252. He has been rather rusty ?—I do not see how a man can possibly be rusty in the District Police Office. 253. Does he ever go into Court ?—Court work is not the only work. 254. Is it not very important for a sergeant to be able to conduct cases in Court ?—lf he has .the knowledge he will very soon pick up Court work. 255. The other man you name was Ellison, and he has been a very long time in the District Office has he not ?—I forget how many years, not much more than myself. 256. How did he get this rank of sergeant ?—They were all sergeants. There was never such a thing heard of as a constable in a District Office until I was transferred to Wellington. 257. He was transferred into the District Office as a sergeant ? —I could not say that. Ido not know when he was transferred. He may have been made sergeant after he got into the District Office. 258. Then he was afterwards sent to his duty was he not ?—Last year he went out, transferred to Wanganui. 259. Your grievance is that he was not deprived of this Is. a day?—lt is not my grievance. I do not begrudge Sergeant Ellison getting it. My grievance is that I was deprived of it. 260. Ellison was the " last of the Mohicans," there was nobody else ?—Well, Sergeant Bell. 261. There was nobody else but these two ? —That is so. The others died. 262. The Chairman.] What about these suggestions you refer to in your letter to the Commission? —The first I would like to refer to is the pension scheme. 263. Colonel Pitt.] Have you got a pension scheme formulated ?—I think the scheme formulated by Mr. Hutchison in 1893 is an excellent scheme. It was freely canvassed at the time amongst the men, and they all seemed to be pretty well pleased with it. 264. The Chairman.] And you think it necessary to have some such pension scheme ?—I think so. I think they have a pension system in pretty well every Police Force in the world. The scheme promoted by Mr. Hutchison is practically self-supporting after the first grant. 265. You say that has been canvassed amongst the the men. Do you mean any particular body of men, or right through the Force?—l think all through the Force. I can speak for the men in the Christchurch and Dunedin districts, and I think also in Auckland. I think Mr. Hutchison went round to the four centres at the time. lam not sure about Wellington. There was some difference, I believe, here. There was another scheme on foot at the time, and there seemed to be a division of opinion. 266. Have you anything to say yourself in support of this scheme—any argument you can use other than those put forward by Mr. Hutchison ?—I do not think so, Sir. I think Mr. Hutchison has pretty well threshed it out. As to the figures, they were carefully worked out at the time as far as we could work them out; and at the end of the tenth year, after paying about one hundred pensions, the pension-fund would have increased to something like £80,000. The interest on the £80,000 and the annual contributions from the men would have paid pretty well all the pensions that would be likely to be chargeable. 267. You do not suggest at present any further argument in support of it than we find here in Mr. Hutchison's pamphlet?—I do not thmk so. There is one thing in connection with that scheme