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123. What was the pay when you joined the Force, and has it varied up to the present time? —I could not say, Sir, what the pay was. I cannot bring to mind what the pay was. I think it is about the same now. 124. It has not varied ?—I do not think so. 125. You think it remains about the same ?—I think so. I forget now exactly. 126. As regards the proportion of the police to the population, how has that varied between the time of your joining in Canterbury up to the present time, or has it varied at all ?—lt is much less now. The Police Force is much less now than it was in Canterbury in proportion to the population. 127. The Chairman.'] Population has increased, and the police have not been increased in the same ratio ?—No. 128. Colonel Pitt.] In your opinion, is the proportion of police to the population sufficient at the present time ?—I think not, Sir. lam speaking now of the Wellington district. 129. What about Christchurch? You know what that was when you left there?-—That was five years ago. 130. Well?— There were not sufficient men then. 131. Now, you have been telling us of the system of training in other places : In New Zealand how long is a man instructed before being allowed to go on public police duty ?—At the present time? 132. Yes ?—Well, latterly, of course, there has been a number of men taken on from the public, and these men were instructed by us as much as we could. 133. But tell me this : During the time you have been in the Police Force what has been the average period a man has been instructed before he is allowed to go on public police duty ?—Oh, he is sent out at once, but with another man. 134. The Chairman.] On beat with another man?—On beat with another man. 135. Two men on the same beat ? —Yes ; he travels the beat with an older constable. 136. That is, recruits are sent on the beat without training, but in company with another constable ?—Yes, for a time. Of course, it would depend on circumstances. If there was a pressure of work he would have to go single-handed. We keep them as much as possible for the first month with another man. 137. Colonel Pitt.] Can you tell me during the time you were in Canterbury what was the average number of defaulters' reports against the police each year ?—No, I could not, Sir ; but I never had very many. I had very few. 138. What do you mean by " very few " —in the year, or altogether ?—Well, in the year. 139. I want you to explain to me a little more clearly what you mean by the difference in the discipline of the Permanent Force and the Police Force ?—Well, of course, the difference between the discipline of the Artillery and the police is quite distinct—very marked; it is different altogether. 140. Do you think military discipline is an advantage or a disadvantage ?—Well, if police training were to be combined with the drill, and so on, I do not know that it would be any disadvantage. 141. But I wish to know if the discipline they are subjected to as members of the Artillery is an advantage or a disadvantage ?—Well, I consider it a disadvantage as a policeman. 142. I notice you are an old soldier yourself. Do you consider your military experience was a disadvantage to you when you joined the Force ?—I got my experience as a policeman before I went to the Crimea. I was all the time in the Irish Police, and I volunteered to the Crimea. I went out as a volunteer from the Irish Police. I was trained as a policeman, therefore, before I went out. 143. You told us Sir Charles McMahon was a military man. Was not his military knowledge an advantage to the Force ?—I have no doubt it was. 144. I would like to get from you in what particular the military discipline of the Permanent Artillery is a disadvantage to those men as policemen ? —I do not say the actual drill is a disadvantage. 145. lam not speaking of the drill at all, but the discipline ? —I will explain that to you. The artillerymen are in the barracks, "and when they get out on leave they knock about the streets— about hotels, or wherever they like to go—and they are free. I suppose they are free when they are out on leave, and they are allowed to associate with people and be as friendly with people just as if they were in no Force at all. When they go into the police that is a disadvantage. It would never do for a policeman to go knocking about publichouses, nor would it do for him to be talking to everyone he met in the streets. Other smaller things perhaps tell against him in the same way. 146. That is, of course, assuming that the policeman does not do that ? —Oh yes, of course. 147. The Chairman.] What I understand you to mean is that a policeman off his duty is a policeman still, while a soldier off his duty is a civilian ?—A policeman is always a policeman, whether off or on duty. 148. Mr. Poynton.] Would you make any suggestion as to enrolment, Mr. Pender—as to how men should be enrolled ? —There would be no difficulty at all with regard to enrolment if they had a depot. 149. Yes, but somebody would have to be responsible. Would it not be better to have a Board, composed, say, of the Inspector of the district, the Minister of Justice, and the Commissioner of Police, to suggest or appoint recruits—would it not be better to have some system like that ?—The Commissioner of Police in all places I have been in put men on. That duty is cast on the Commissioner. 150. You think he would be sufficient ?—Yes.