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17. When was the money given that was borrowed?— Sums of money have been obtained on so many occasions that I do not think I am in a position to say when the first payment was made. 18. When was the last payment made ?—Sums of money were advanced during the years 1890, 1891, and 1892. 19. What is the total amount that your wife got ? —£1,300 I think my wife got, or thereabouts. 20. For what purpose did she get this money?—-Well, at that time she was ill, in the doctor's hands ; that was the reason. 21. Surely she did not want £1,300 to pay the doctor's bill?— She had to come to Wellington so many times. 22. Is the money all spent now ?—Yes. 23. I should like to know how she was able to get this money, when her name was not in the grant ?—She did get in. In 1889 she claimed to be included and was successful, the Crown grantees having admitted her right. 24. Was this done by the Court ?—Yes. 25. In 1889 ?—The ten grantees admitted her right and she was put in the grant in 1889. 26. By what Judge ?■—Judge Mackay. 27. Were any others admitted at the same time ?—No ; she alone. 28. Can you tell me what amount in all has been borrowed by the Natives on these blocks of 24,000 acres ?—Nearly £7,000 is the total amount. 29. For what purpose was this money borrowed ? Was it to make improvements on land belonging to the borrowers, or for stock or buildings ?—I have already explained that the necessity for the money was that the people were split up amongst themselves; some had sided with Mr. Pharazyn, and others wanted to retain the land for themselves. 30. That is no excuse for borrowing money, surely ? —Well, Mr. Pharazyn had opened his money-bag for the benefit of these people, and he got 11,000 acres of land. 31. Did the Natives go to Mr. Pharazyn to borrow the money, or did Mr. Pharazyn or his agents offer the money to the Natives?—Piripi and Hemi were the people who were on Mr. Pharazyn's side, and they arranged this matter. 32. That is no answer to my question. 33. The Chairman.] Did your wife go to Mr. Pharazyn, or did Mr. Pharazyn go to your wife about this money?— The money-bag was open at that time, and she went and asked for some. 34. Hon. T. Kelly.] Who told her the money-bag was open ?—The interpreter. 35. What was his name?—Hutton. 36. Was he a licensed interpreter?— Yes. 37. Was he acting on Mr. Pharazyn's behalf, or for some one else ?—He was acting for Mr. Pharazyn. 38. When the Natives received the money did they sign a document ?—They did. 39. Were the documents interpreted to them, so that they could understand their exact position ? —Oh, yes ! 40. I wish to know when they signed these documents if they krfew they were to be charged 8 per cent, for the money?— Yes, they did. 41. They also knew the rent would not pay interest on the money?— That was not stated. 42. They must have known the amount of rent they were receiving?— The leases at this time had not been signed. 43. Was it simply an agreement to lease ?—The first lease had been taken exception to by the Natives, because they found it provided that, after the expiration of twenty-one years, they were bound for another term of twenty-one years, making, in all, forty-two years, to which they objected. 44. What was the date of the first lease ? —The first lease was made in the year 1870, and after the expiration of that lease then came in this other lease. 45. That would be at the time when the first lease was about expiring?—lt had not expired at the time when this other transaction was entered into. 46. I understand by the terms of the first lease a renewal was to be given for twenty-one years? —That was another lease—the second lease. 47. Which was being negotiated at that time ?—Yes ; it was the second lease which provided for a term of forty-two years, and that was the one the Maoris objected to. 48. The whole matter was then under negotiation at the time the money-bag was open, as you express it? —Yes; the people were divided into two sections, each trying to get the land. Pharazyn got 11,000 acres, and the others 13,000 acres. 49. The lease to Mr. Pharazyn was completed as far as these Natives were concerned ?—Yes. 50. Was it sanctioned by the Court at all ?—lt was. 51. By what Judge? —Judge Mackay. 52. When was that?—l am not quite certain as to the year; but I should like to say, in explanation, that before Mr. Pharazyn had these 11,000 acres he still went on with further negotiations endeavouring to get the rest of the land as well. 53. I want to know the date when it was before Judge Mackay ?—There is the record in the office. 54. With respect to the 13,000 acres, was that also before the Court?— Yes. 55. At the same time? —Yes, it was; but even though that was done, Mr. Pharazyn did not cease in his endeavours to obtain the rest of the land. There was my wife's interest: there was trouble about that. Pharazyn's side contended that she should not be recognised as owner of the acres that belonged to her, but that they had been given to her by Piripi and Hemi, who were on Mr. Pharazyn's side, and she had signed the other lease. 56. Mr. Graham.'] Did I understand you to say that the name of your wife was not included in the first grant, but that she was afterwards admitted as an owner ?—That is so. 3—l. 8.