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map. It was after we returned home that Palmerson came to survey the land. I was quite cicalas to where the 1,200 acres was situated. I saw Lewis at the Court. I did not see him taking any part in the arrangement of the 1,200 acres, but I heard that he decided the locality. There were orders made by the second Court for other divisions of the block besides those I have mentioned. I remember some of them, not all; there were so many. As I have stated before, the railway-line was the first division. Then came the 4,000 acres sold to the Government. The next I know of was the 800 acres. I cannot remember its divisional number. It was awarded to Kemp for his debts. I did not know about his debts ; they were incurred over his Wanganui lands, and had nothing whatever to do with Horowhenua. We had some talk over it, and the tribe consented to the land being given to Kemp for the purpose I have stated. Te Keepa asked for the land at Palmerston in a meeting-house, in which we also lived. He asked for a piece of land to enable him to pay his debts to the lawyers. He said it would take 800 acres. The lawyer's name was Sievewright. We consented to this request unconditionally. Ido not know what Sievewright was to get. I myself agreed. I agreed to 800 acres being given to Kemp to sell in order to pay his debt to Sievewright. All the tribe consented. I have repeated this several times. I did not hear one dissenting voice. I was in Kahui's Court when the application was made to it for the 800 acres. The purpose for which it was intended was stated in Court, as I have stated it here. There was no dissent in Court, and the order was made in favour of Kemp. The next application was for the block for us, the tribe, after those objected to had been thrown out. Ido not remember how many there were of us. We were to get 105 acres each, but on survey the area was slightly reduced, This was a matter of arrangement out of Court. It was settled out of Court. I got my 105 acres. The next was the block for the rerewaho, the people omitted from the certificate of 1873. Cannot say now many. Do not remember number of block. It was awarded to Kemp as trustee, to convey to the rerewaho. No. 11 was awarded by the same Court. I heard that the area was 15,000 acres, but it seems to be less now. Our houses are on this block. There are cultivations of ours on the land. This block was awarded to Kemp as trustee ; Warena Hunia was put in the title with him. It was said at our meetings that No. 11 was for us, the people who are living on the land, not for those outside —I mean our relatives of Ngatikahungunu, Eangitane, and Ngatiapa. They were not to be in it. I refer to the persons in the certificate, and who Muaupoko had agreed should be put on the hilly portion of the land. The block was to be permanently reserved for us, the occupants. This was decided at our meetings. It was not proposed to divide it at that time. The tribe decided to keep it intact, and not subdivide it. It also decided to put Kemp's name in the certificate as trustee. After the meeting we went to the Court and informed it that this land was for the permanent residents. Kemp gave this and all other information to the Court. All the tribe did was to decide outside the Court. Kemp applied to the Court to award No. 11 to him as trustee. This was objected to by Wirihana Hunia, who proposed that his brother Warena's name should be put in the title with Kemp's. We, the tribe, did not consent to that young man being put in. We went into a side room, where we objected to Warena being made a trustee, but Kemp ultimately agreed to his name being put into the title. Warena was not present; Wirihana was. The Court waited while we were in the room. The name of Ihaia Taueki was proposed as a co-grantee with Kemp. Kemp proposed it, but it was not agreed to. There were no others proposed. The end of the discussion in the room was that Kemp said that Warena should be a co-trustee with him for No. 11. I did not agree to this. All objected. Some left the Court and went away. I became angry, and went out of the Court. I was not in the Court when the order was made for No. 11, but I knew that it was awarded to Kemp and Warena, as I understood it, as trustees. We made no objection in Court. The name of Ihaia Taueki was put into the hill block, which I have heard is a large one. It was discussed at our meeting outside the Court. I insisted at the meeting that my name should be put into this block as trustee. Hoani Puihi also wanted to be put in as trustee. Himiona Kowhai's name was also proposed. The meeting decided that Ihaia Taueki's name only should be put in the title as trustee, not as absolute owner. I was present when this block was awarded to Ihaia Taueki by the Court as trustee. Ido not know the number of it. It was said to contain 13,000 acres. I remember an award being made to Wiremu Matakara for one square foot. All these subdivisions were discussed and agreed to by the tribe at meetings held in our meeting-house. There was no evidence given in the Court about ancestry. It was all settled out of Court, and every one was intended to have a share—even those omitted from the certificate of 1873. Ido not remember all the small divisions. I remember all the large ones. Q. Did Kemp get a share ? Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Stafford objected. The Court ruled that it was a proper question. Sir W. Buller : What share did Kemp get for himself ? Witness : Kemp got Waiwiri for himself. I have stated that we all got a share ; no one was left out. Waiwiri contains 1,200 acres. It is at Waiwiri Lake. The pa is called Papaitonga. The land is on both sides of the railway. The railway runs through it. Ido not know the number of it. I was present in Court when this 1,200 acres was applied for for Kemp. The Court challenged objectors. I did not see any objector. The land was awarded to Kemp. This was in Court. Waiwiri was talked about at our meetings outside the Court. To Assessor : This was the same land that was rejected by the descendants of Whatanui— the inland part. Now I find that it extends to Waiwiri. To Sir W. Buller: The talk about Waiwiri at our meetings was about giving it to Kemp. No one objected. The meetings of the tribe were all the same. Kemp was present at this particular meeting. Hare Pomare, of Ngapuhi, Te Hitau (female), and Heni Kipa were the descendants of Whatanui that I saw at Palmerston when the Court sat in 1886. I do not remember any others. They occupied a different house to ours, some distance off. Heard about a meeting between Mr.Lewis and the descendants of Whatanui at Palmerston at that time. Was not present. It was

3—G. 2.