199

G.—2

185. Who was living and cultivating at Kouturoa, as far as you can remember ?—-Te Whatanui first of all, and a few who were living with him. 186. As a matter of fact, speaking before the Court of 1873, was not the land to the south of the Hokio, right on to Waiwiri, looked upon as belonging to the various sections of the Ngatiraukawa ? —Yes. 187. Where did the boundary of the lease run? —North of Hokio Stream. [Witness indicated the boundary on the map.] 188. Do you know of any boundary between Whatanui's people and the rest of the Ngatiraukawa ?—Yes. 189. Where did that boundary run?— Down by Mahoenui. 190. Where did it strike the sea ? —Somewhere south of the lagoon which is near the seacoast. 191. That was a recognised boundary of Te Whatanui's people and the other hapus of Ngatiraukawa ? —Yes. 192. Were these definitely recognised boundaries in your time?— Yes. 193. The Chairman.'] That was prior to 1873 ? —Yes; I have seen these people disputing over the boundaries over and over again. 194. Mr. Morison.] That is the Ngatiraukawa amongst themselves?— Yes. 195. The Chairman.] Did you give evidence, Mr. McDonald, in the Native Land Court in 1873?—N0. 196. Was your father living then ?—He gave no evidence ; he was not called. 197. Mr. Morison.] —When did you first remember Whatanui te Waiwai ?—I remember him when a little boy ; he lived close to my father, and he used to come down and play cards with us every night. 198. When the war broke out on this coast do you remember his going over ? —I do not. It was after he came back from the East Coast that I remember him definitely. 199. You had heard of him before chat ? —Yes. .200. After he returned from the Bast Coast was he looked upon as one of the people on the land ?—My father used to pay him rent; afterwards we had a lease of the land to the south of the stream down to Waiwiri, and when Te Whatanui died the Nicholsons turned our sheep off and pulled down our fences, and all that sort of thing. My father came to some arrangement with him to allow our milk cows to run on that side of the stream, and paid Te Whatanui something for them. I remember at one time he got in payment for it two steers. 201. Of course, since the Court of 1873, Nicholson's and Whatanui's people have continued to live at Baumatangi on the adjoining land?— Yes. 202. Did they put sheep on after your father's occupation was determined ?—Yes. 203. I think your father wished to recognise some personal claim under a will of Whatanui's. Was not that the reason of the dispute ?—I think there was some will. 204. There was some alleged will from Whatanui, and your father thought he ought to recognise that—some sixty acres near the sea-coast at the mouth of the stream. Was not there some dispute between Whatanui's wife's relations and his own immediate relatives?—l do not remember. 205. You do not remember your father recognising the will in favour of the wife's relations ?— No; I remember the wife's father living there. 206. Who lived at Eakauhamama ?—I do not remember who lived there. 207. Do you remember Watene te Whiwhi going there at all ? —No. 208. Who lived at Kouturoa before 1873 ?—Te Whatanui and an old man called Tamati Manu and his children. 209. Who was the leading chief of the Muaupoko in the old days before the Court ?—Taueki was supposed to be. 210. Mr. Fraser.] Major Kemp is supposed to have said this in a Supreme Court case: " McDonald gave you security for £2,000 back rent did he not? —Not that I know of. In 1888?— He did not mortgage to me. Do you say he did not give you a mortgage for the back rent ?—That was later when he could not pay the rent. Did you get back the £2,000, or most of it ? —Hector did not pay, and John and his mother went into it, and they paid it." Can you tell the Commission what date that £2,000 was paid to Kemp ?—ln 1889, 1 think. 211. Was it before the partition of Block 2 in 1890 ?—Yes. 212. You say that you believe that £2,000 went in liquidating expenses in fighting Warena ?— I did not say that the whole of that £2,000 went. 213. What you said was that £4,000 went, in which this £2,000 was included?— The greater part of the £4,000. 214. Then the greater part of £4,000 would be £3,000, so you admit that some of the £2,000 went in fighting Warena ? —I paid Kemp one cheque of £400 through Southey Baker, and next £1,300 to Baker also. 215. It was before the Court of 1890 that you paid the £2,000 ?—Yes. 216. And you believe that that money went to pay expenses in fighting Warena?—l would not say that £1,700 went in disputes with Warena. 217. Perhaps you will tell the Commission what dispute had occurred in 1890, in or out of Court, between Kemp and Hunia?—l know nothing at all about it. 218. There was no dispute prior to 1890, and yet you paid Kemp £1,700 which unintentionally no doubt, you led the Commission to believe went in paying expenses ? —I did not intend to lead the Commission to believe that. 219. Now, Kemp says that £2,000 went in the same way as the £6,000 did. I suppose that would be fairly correct ? —I cannot tell you.