193

G.—2

271. I ask you now, was Hunia in the tent when the list of 143 names was settled?—Kawana Hunia was in the house, Te Whatahoro was the clerk, and Heta and Eangi Mairehau called out the names. 272. Did Kawana Hunia offer any objection to the 143 names that were put in that list ?—No, he did not. 273. Did he say one word of objection when he went into the Court with that list ? —No. 274. Now I am going to read you something that Mr. Alexander McDonald said when you were away : " I cannot tell what may have been working in the Muaupoko's mind unless there was some outward indication of it, but I myself believe it was myself who selected No. 14 in fulfilment of this agreement and I did so for certain reasons only, one of which. I suppose is material to this Commission, and that was that being at the bottom of the. land and adjoining the Ngatiraukawa estate, it would not interfere in that position with any internal arrangements the Muaupoko desired to make with their land." Then, again, he said, "My recollection was that No. 14 was kept open till the last and was last disposed of by the Court in the hope that somebody would say, ' We will take No. 9 in satisfaction of this agreement,' and that then some disposition would be made of No. 14.' He also said, " I cannot remember exactly the order of proceedings in Court, &c." I want to ask you whether Mr. McDonald's recollection as stated there is right, or whether it is absolutely wrong ? —It is all untrue. 275. Hoani Puihi has sworn to this : " I spoke to Major Kemp in the Square at Palmerston. I said, ' I think you and your younger brethren had better cease your work and give the land back to the people.' Kemp said, ' Never, never, never.' That was in 1886." If he said that, is it true or is it false? —It is not true. 276. Then you had no dispute at all until 1890?— No; that was the year he got these people to help him. 277. Is it not a fact that all along you have been anxious to give the land back to the tribe? —Yes. 278. But that you insisted on your cotrusteeship, Warena Hunia doing the same?— Yes, that was my- talk-. 279. And was it not because Warena Hunia refused that you dragged him into the Supreme Court ?—Yes. 280. Now we come to the deed of release and discharge and confirmation. Do you remember giving this evidence in the Supreme Court in Wanganui. You were cross-examined by Mr. Barmcoat : " Q. On the subdivision, 1,200 acres were set aside to Whatanui's people, were there not?— I cut that off. The tribe did not tell me to cut it off; that was my own. Q. It was done?—■ Yes, I did it. That did not suit them, so another 1,200 acres was cut off? —Yes, they said they did not want that. They wanted a piece alongside their own, so I cut off another piece. Q. The first piece remained in your name?— Yes. Q. You have sold it?—l have it. I have leased it to Sir W. Buller." There was no suggestion then by anybody that you ought to give it back to the tribe, or that it was in trust ?—I did not see anything of that kind. 281. I asked you about the deed of release to Kereheipa. Do you remember being asked this question in the Court at Wanganui: "Q. Warena brought an action against you? —Yes. Q. After that, did you try to get a deed from the tribe releasing you from the back rent ?—That was after I went to my tribe and got the deed. Q. Did you pay them £1,000 when you got the deed signed?— Not that I know of. Q. Then you do not know whether the tribe received any money when they signed the deed ?—I do not know " ? Did you at the time pay a single shilling to the Muaupoko for signing that deed, or have you since?—No, I never gave them any money before or after signing, and right up to the time that we quarrelled I have not given them any money. 282. I will read you another passage of Wirihana's evidence given in the Supreme Court, Wanganui. He said, "The 1,200 acres was the last the decision was given on. That is the land that was first given to descendants of Te Whatanui. It was given to Kemp to give to them, because the 1,200 acres had been taken out of No. 11. Then Kemp said to me privately, ' Leave that in my name —the piece that Sir Walter Buller is now leasing.' I said, 'Oh, very well.' That is all I know." Wirihana Hunia was also asked: "Q. No. 11 has the whole sea-frontage of the block?— Yes. Q. And all the fisheries of the tribe, eel-preserves, &c. ?—Yes; Major Kemp and Warena have them. Q. Is Ihaia Teueki now living there?—He is the ariki of those under him. He is the ariki of his own hapu. I object to Ihaia's ancestral right. He occupied there. His father was buried there. His people went there in the old time—in time of war. Ihaia had houses there, and cultivations at time of the subdivision, and his father was buried there, and the other people lived there and had cultivations. Q. Then they all had right to this land ? No. " You heard Wirihana give that evidence, Kemp?—Yes. 283. Again Wirihana said, in reply to the question, " Have the people on Warena's piece, i.e. 11b, a right there?— Not now; it belongs to Warena." Wirihana stated here before the Commission generally, that he was a greater chief than you, and he had always been fighting you over this land. In connection with that I want to show you a letter, addressed by Wirihana Hunia to you, on the 20th April, 1889 [letter read and put in marked "T"]. With regard to the sale of the township of which we have heard so much, I do not ask you anything about that, but Hoani Puihi has complained that his settlement, Tirotiro, was not cut off as you promised it should be. Did you ask the Government to cut out Tirotiro?—Yes ; I spoke to Mr. Ballance and he would not do it. 284. The Chairman.] Verbally or in writing ?—I went to Mr. Ballance myself. 285. Sir W. Buller.] What did Mr. Ballance say when you asked him ?—He said that he did not see that they wanted a Maori kainga there, as it would not do to have Natives in the township. 286. Then it was not your fait that Tirotiro was not cut out ?—No ; Mr. Ballance's. 287. You did what you could to get it cut out ?—No ; when it was not cut out, I assented to what he did. 25—a, 2.