G.—2

186

58. Had you a claim to the south of this laud ?—Yes. 59. Had you always a claim to the south c. it ? —Yes, and beyond that. 60. Did you never admit the rights of Ngatiraukawa to the north of the southern boundary ?— No, I did not assent to it. 61. You admit that you always claimed to the south of that boundary?— That is my boundary, but my original one was a good deal to the south of it. 62. You have told us that you have never admitted the rights of Ngatiraukawa to the north of that line ?—No. 63. And your southern boundary was always to the south?— Yes. 64. Who were the other principal chiefs of Muaupoko in 1873? —Myself, Thaia, Eaniera, Eewiri, Taueki, and Te Atua and Te Eangirurupuni. 65. Would the latter know the boundaries between Ngatiraukawa and Muauopoko?—His knowledge would be confined to Kukutuaki. 66. He would have no knowledge of this land ?—No. 67. Would Noa have any knowledge of this land?— Yes, like myself. These are our own people. 68. I will show you a Kahiti containing the claims of Muaupoko in 1872. These boundaries began at Eakauhamama and went on to Mahoenui ?—That was not a claim for the whole tribe, but for two or three individuals. 69. Do you remember giving evidence before Mr. Travers in 1871 ? —Perhaps I did. 70. Now Mr. Travers was a Commissioner appointed by Sir Donald McLean, to inquire into the boundaries of the Horowhenua land ? —I do not know about that. 71. Do you remember giving this evidence: Mr. Travers asked you, "Are you a chief of Muaupoko ? —Yes. Do you claim some of the land in the neighbourhood of Horowhenua Lake ?— I do. Was that land formerly occupied by Te Whatanui ?—lt was. State the ground upon which you claim it ?—From the beginning of my ancestors. Do you mean that it formed part of the possessions of the Muaupoko Tribe ?—lt did. Tell me the boundaries of the Muaupoko people ?— The boundary commenced at Te Namai Eangi on the north side of the Hokio, thence to the mouth of the Hokio, then along the beach to Eakauhamama. Then it strikes inland, and goes to Mahoenui. There is no dispute about land inland of this. We claim the whole of the land within these boundaries" ? Do you remember giving that evidence before Mr. Travers ? — Yes I recollect that; but that was the piece that was undisputed. There was a dispute outside of this, and afterwards they brought that dispute inside. The land held in dispute at that time was the land outside the northern boundary, and outside the southern boundary, but that inside was not disputed at all then. The Ngatiraukawa then brought their boundaries closer up to Tawhirikari, and they went right across Tauataruru then up to the mountains, and that was the Ngatiraukawa boundary. 72. You have made a mistake ? —No ; that was the disputed piece. 73. Do you mean to say that Ngatiraukawa did not claim to the north of Tawhirikari and Tautaruru, as well as to the south ? — [Witness here indicated on the map the boundaries of the sections in dispute, and chose not in dispute.] 74. Do you say that up to 1873 there was no claim about this land here ? Did not Ngatiraukawa claim Whatanui's land?— The Ngatiraukawa put in a claim there, and they found they were beaten. 75. That shows the absurdity of your answer. There was no dispute about the land inside of this boundary. Do you remember this question being put to you : " Does that include the whole of the land inside of this boundary" ? Then you said, "It includes the land occupied by Te Whatanui, and there was a little piece beside the lake which he was given leave to occupy." You were also asked, " Do you dispute the title of Ngatihuia " ? and you said, " I dispute the Ngatihuia also, except a small burial-piece, which can be made sacred." Do you remember giving that evidence ? —Yes, that is quite right. That would be for my chieftainship to give ; but I would not allow them in Court; I would thresh them out. 76. Will you point out on the map where that burial-place of the Ngatihuia was ?—lt is a very small place, just by the side of the lake. 77. By the Horowhenua Lake?—No; down here, near the sand—the lake on the sand. 78. That was a burial-place of the Ngatihuia? —Yes, it was a burial-place; and my burialplaces they have got now. 79. Now, you recollect the dispute in 1874 between Kawana Hunia and Watene which has been referred to this morning ? —Yes ; when the Natives' house was built I was there. 80. You were in Wanganui at that time?—l came from Wanganui on to Horowhenua. 81. lam speaking of the burning of the whare at Mahoenui? —At Otaiua; that was mine. I came from Wanganui with Turi, and we stayed at Kupe, and they went to burn the houses. When they came back from burning the houses I asked them why they did not cut up the men. 82. My question is after the Court. Are you speaking after or before the Court in 1874?— Yes, it was after the Court. 83. When the houses were burnt by Kawana Hunia after the Court, where were you?—l was at Horowhenua, at Kupe, when the houses were burnt. 84. After the Court ?—Yes, and then I built the pa. 85. Where did you next go after the burning of the whares ? —I went to Wanganui, and from there to Wellington. 86. Why did you go to Wanganui at that time? —I thought there was going to be a fight, and I went down there to see about some men. 87. But why did you go from Wanganui to Wellington?—l had a great deal of business to do there.