G.—2

170

5. But, supposing the tribe had not agreed when they did hear of it, what would have happened ?—No one would have disputed it. It is in consequence of what you have done yourself personally that mischief has been caused, and the people have been talking about it. 6. But I did not create that mischief in 1886. If the tribe had not agreed to this, what would have happened ?—They could not say anything, because it descended to me from my ancestors. It was impossible for them to disagree. 7. It was within this block of land that you were giving this land, was it not ?—Yes. 8. Was not this block awarded to Muaupoko in 1873 ? —Their names were on the back of the paper. My name alone was in the certificate. 9. But the land was awarded to them?— Yes, it was given to them, but I was in the certificate. 10. Then, if when they heard of the gift of a portion of land which had been awarded to them, and they had disagreed, what would have happened ? —They could not have objected. If there could have been any objection, it must have been suggested by you. 11. Your position, then, was that you could make any disposition of this block which pleased you ?—Who could have the right to do so if I had not. 12. Could any one object to anything you did?— They have not objected to anything: it is only you. You are trying to get hold of something from me, so as to make what you said appear correct. 13. Block 11 was awarded to yourself and Warena?—lt was given to me, and I put Warena in ; and therein I erred. 14 Did you propose to return this land to the people ?—That was my own idea entirely. 15. Will you give the list of the persons to whom you proposed to return it ?—I have not made out a list of the names for No. 11. 16. It was understood before you went away to Parihaka that such a list would be furnished. When will you be prepared to hand in this list ? —When my land has been given to me, I will take it into the Native Land Court, and I will cut out the persons who have no right to it. When the land comes to be dealt with in the Native Land Court, the law will cut out those who have no right to it. 17.. But I understood you to say you were the prominent person who could do as you liked with this land ?—Yes; it belongs to me, because the land is mine, and I am the chief of it. 18. Is it not for you to say who is to go in and who is to be left out ?—I will put them out in the Court. I want it brought before the Court. 19. But I ask you to furnish this Court with the list of persons who you admit should be in No. 11 ?—When I have cleaned the place by sending you and your tongue out of it I shall then go to work. 20. Will you give a list of those whom you admit ?—Why should I award it now before the thing is settled. 21. Are we not trying to settle this very thing?— This is not the end of it. It will go to England at last. I have told you before that I was not frightened of you, but I shall take it home to England if necessary. 22. Do you remember an answer you gave to the Ngatiraukawa chief to this effect, " I am a major. I will be a general if you do so-and-so " ?—That was at Otaki. Karamama came to me at the hotel and said, " If you go to survey the land (meaning Horowhenua) you will be fired at "; and somebody also said, "If you go there guns will be fired upon you." I, in return, said, "Do not you know that my name is Major Kemp. I have gained that from my fighting in this Island, but now that you have told me you will fire upon me, I shall become a general." That was all. I said, " You will not be able to destroy this word of mine," and they were silent and went outside. 23. The meaning of this was, that it would be better for them to let the disturbance end, and to settle it at that time, than to continue it any longer ? —Yes. 24. In the same way I ask you to settle this matter now, and not carry it on any further ? — Your lawyer said that you would take it even to England, and lam quite agreeable. Why do you say now that we should settle it here ? Do you think this will be the end of it ? No; I will still contest this thing until you are beaten. 25. Well, I want to be done with it ?—You can finish it if you like. Why do you say that you had finished it before, when you said you had finished, and came out and shook hands. 26. Then you will not give the list? —I will not. 27. Do you remember Mr. Lewis appearing in the Court in Palmerston in 1886 ?—Yes; I saw him there. 28. Have you any recollection of what he said in the Court?-—I recollect some of it, but I did not write it down. 29. If you heard his evidence from the minute-book would you recognise it ? It is as follows : "T. W. Lewis (sworn) : lam the Under-Secretary. I know of the arrangement spoken of. I have some notes of the arrangement. It was to be a block of 4,000 acres to be cut up as town and suburban land. The intention was for town allotments, garden, and for small farms. The terms were not settled finally to see what orders in subdivision would be made. The terms were settled so far that the land would be dealt with in the best interests of all the owners. The Native Minister was satisfied of this. Examined by the Court: There is no difficulty as to its being cut up. As to what the manner was in which the land was to be cut up that was not settled until the present Court had fixed the subdivision. [Mr. Lewis reads memoranda and explains nature of arrangements.] The Court: The order is granted to Keepa te Eangihiwinui for the 4,000 acres, the position to be delineated on the plan and numbered 2. Mr. Lewis, on former oath : During the time Sir Donald McLean was Native Minister there was serious difficulty and destruction of property on Horowhenua. The Government succeeded in an amicable settlement, and part of the agreement was that 1,300 acres be given to certain Natives. They paid for the survey of the whole block. Kemp on his part as a chief executed an agreement which was deposited with the Government. He made over