142

G.—2

309. Was anything said then about making a present of this land to these two chiefs?—No; I I was the director there, and I never said anything of the kind. 310. If land had been given, would not some speeches have been made in farewell to the land ?— Yes ; and I would not have allowed it. 311. Although you admit that the land was held in trust by these two chiefs, what is your opinion as to who should go in—all the Muaupoko, or only the actual residents?—l do not think it should be given to those living at a distance, but to those who have kept their fires alight on the land. 312.. Was that the general feeling of the meeting which you conducted, when the land was put in the names of these two chiefs ? —Yes; that outsiders should not participate in the land, and Kemp agreed to the same idea about it. 313. Did he say at the meeting that he agreed?-—Yes. 314. You think that not only this £2,000 that Warena got should be brought back, but the money for the township, and the tenths should be brought back?— Yes, and my land at Tirotiro. 315. But if you got a reserve at Tirotiro you would be satisfied ?—-Yes, if they made a reserve of 800 or 900 acres. 316. You would also like these tenths to come back?— Yes, all the quarter-acre sections. 317. You a,r c pouri because they do not come back ? —Yes. 318. Have you ever complained to Kemp about it, and told him it was his fault ?—He knew ; I had sent out a notice about it, and he was angry with me about it. 319. Whose fault was it that you did not get your tenths—Kemp's or that of the Government? was Kemp's fault; it was not the fault of the Government. 320. Did you hear Kemp say that Mr. Ballance swept away all these arrangements ?—I heard that from Mr. Lewis. He told me to ask Kemp for them, and if Kemp gave them it was all right; it rested with him, and if he would not there was no help for it. 321. Do you think Kemp has got these, or not?—No; I think the land has all gone to the Government. 322. Mr. Stevens.] Were you at the place you now reside when the Government came up for the purpose of 'pointing out the boundary of the 1,500 acres that was sold to the Government ?— Yes; I was at my place, but a portion of it was included in the title. 322 a. Did you know something about the sale ?—I did not hear that the land was to be sold, but that the money had been received for the sale of it. 323. Did Warena or Wirihana not mention the matter to you ?—Wirihana told me after the money had been received. 324. Did you agree to what Wirihana said ? —I said to him, " Why do you not show to me and the hapu the moneys of the sale ? Why did you not tell me and the hapu of the proposed sale and the money you received for it " ? 325. What did he say in reply?—He said, "We have received £2,000." I said, "You have taken 1,500 acres, and part of the land was to be returned to me." But he would not consent. 326. Supposing Warena gave you what he considered a fair share of the balance of the money due for the 1,500 acres, would you think he had a right to do so or not ?—That would not be right; they must put the whole of the money together. 327. Did Kemp put the whole of the money together and make you any offer in regard to any money received by him?—No; he had the moneys and consumed them ; we did not get any of it. 328. Supposing they have both done wrong, who has done the greater wrong of the two ?— Kemp. 329. The names of Kemp and Watena having been put into Block 11, the block was afterwards divided, each getting half. Supposing Warena said, "I am prepared to make a fair subdivision of the land," is there anyone who could object to his making that subdivision ?—lf he was to deceive us and not show us the names of the men to whom he was going to divide it, I should object. 330. But supposing he did show you the names? —If he showed us the names of the people he had chosen I should have no objection, 331. You did not hear what Judge Wilson said with regard to No. 14 ?—No. 332. Which was the first block cut out for the Whatanui—No. 9 or No. 14 ?—The first block cut out was the block cut out running from the Creek Hokio. 333. How many acres were there in that block? —100. 334. What was the next block cut out for the Whatanui?—Papaitonga. 335. Was that block cut out outside or inside the Court ?—I am not quite certain whether it was cut out outside the Court or inside. I heard this same land was to be given away at Papaitonga for the descendants of Whatanui. 336. Was an order made in the Court ?—I did not see any order. 337. In whose name was it put ? —lt was intended for the descendants of Whatanui, who are established on the land. 338. When the block was cut out, who was to convey it to those descendants ?—Kemp ; and he was to give it to the descendants of Whatanui. 839. How do you know he was to give it to the descendants of Whatanui ?—Because he was conductor of all the blocks on this land. 340. Was it said at the meeting that the Whatanui were to get this land ?— Yes ; it was stated at the Native meeting that they were to have it. But they were not satisfied. 341. Was that stated inside as well as outside the Court?—lt was spoken of in the Court. 342. The Whatanui would not accept the 1,200 acres at Papaitonga?—No; they did not want it. They were not pleased with it. 343. Did they not have another 1,200 acres given them in lieu of this?— That settlement was arrived at a good while after.