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40. Your recollection is that no order was made in favour of Kemp ?—lt was withdrawn, so far as I rememher, before the order was made in favour of Kemp, but the minute-book will show. I cannot recollect exactly. I cannot see how Kemp's land could possibly be withdrawn from the Court; it is his land. 41. As a matter of fact, the voluntary arrangement was made, and took that shape? —It was withdrawn to enable them to agree about the descendants of Whatanui. 42. You cannot remember whether it was then agreed that an order should be made in Kemp's favour?—l know it had vanished out of our Court, and the next time I saw it was when the order came up to me to sign in favour of Kemp. 4.3. The order did come up to you?— Yes ; two years afterwards. 44. You must have made an order then?— That is the very point I have my doubt about. 45. Do you remember that two years ago a confirmatory order was signed by you in Kemp's name ?—I know this was withdrawn for the purpose of making it over to the Whatanui through Kemp. Kemp was the owner, and it could only be made over to them through Kemp; but when I found out some time afterwards, that Whatanui's people never got that land, I was surprised to hear it. 46. You are clear in your mind that when this No. 9 was set apart it was intended for Whatanui's people, and that Mr. Lewis assented to that arrangement ?—He took it out of our Court, and arranged with Te Whatanui's people. I heard afterwards they did not get that land. 47. After that, No. 11 came on? —Yes; the part surrounding the block that had been withdrawn from the Court. 48. You said that Kemp made a speech in regard to this : do you remember what it was? — He said they wished the tribe to hold this land in order that none of them should be in a position to sell it, and for that reason they were putting it in the names of two —himself and another. 49. Was the other one Warena ? —The other one was the one who was in the title. 50. You said this in the Supreme Court : "It was not ever intended to give the land to these two in fee-simple. It appeared to us that the Natives had devised an expedient to get over a difficulty constantly occurring, namely, to make a firm reserve that nothing could touch. Major Kemp was the spokesman. He introduced the matter of the partition of Block XI. with some remarks. He said he was going to ask the Court to put that block into two names only. They were afraid if all their names were put into it that individuals would sell, and by putting the land in the names of two whom they could trust they intended to avoid that danger; and the names were handed to the Court. I have no doubt that the intention was to give the land to the two on behalf of the men whose names were on the back of the certificate. My impression was that the persons for whom the so-called trust was created were those out of them on the certificate who had rights in that portion of the whole 52,000; they were not disclosed to us. This was what was really brought before us. Kemp spoke of 'the people'; they were not defined." Is that true?— Yes. 51. You say also that Kemp's statements proved that the statement you gave is correct?— Yes. 52. You also say, " Kemp, I think, had not any agent. I speak Maori. I understood him. It was not a long speech—Kemp's. I have no doubt the intention was to give the land to the two on behalf of the men whose names were on the back of the certificate." You remember that? —Yes ; Kemp was so clearly before us that he is the man I have impressed on my mind's eye. McDonald was very likely his agent. If he says so, I should say so at once, but I cannot remember it. 53. You said in the Supreme Court, " I was careful to call for objectors all through. We challenge. I say I thought the trust was for those who were interested. My impression was that the persons for whom the so-called trust was created were those out of them on the certificate who had rights in that portion of the whole 52,000. They were not disclosed to us. This was what was really brought before us. Kemp spoke of the people. They were not defined. That was my impression." Is that true?— Yes. 54. What was your impression of Kemp's attitude towards the tribe through all these proceedings ?—I thought he was a very exemplary chief—thoroughly loyal to his tribe. It was in this respect I spoke of him as an exemplary chief. 55. You can say positively that no suspicion had crossed your mind at this time that these-two men were combining to have this large estate as their own?—No; certainly not. Kemp had a piece for himself prior to this. 56. With regard to Block No. 12, which he first asked to have put in his own name, but afterwards agreed to have in the name of Ihaia Taueki, did you intend that to be given to him absolutely or as trustee ? —Oh, no; as a trustee. 57. You had no doubt it was a trust ?—No doubt at all. I may say, up to the time we are speaking of, from the inception of the Native Land Court, the traditions of our Court were—though they might have been weakening about this time, and now the tradition is exploded—the traditions were (especially during the first five Judges it was something more than a tradition, it was a doctrine of the Court) that anything that was necessary to redress a wrong, or what might appear to be a wrong, action of the Court from causes, inside or outside of legislation, must be legislated for. There was a promise from the Minister for the time being, which went from Minister to Minister, that by special powers and contracts, or in some other way, special legislation should make anything that seemed to require it valid, so much so, that in 1873 Mr. McLean, the Native Minister, thanked Judge Eogan for acting outside the law so as to get the country settled. All that he did was legalised afterwards I have no doubt. Of the five Judges, Smith was the one who heard the block in the first instance, and he said to me, " They will legalise what we have done." 58. You said in the Supreme Court, " What Kemp got himself was No. 14—1,200 acres " : that is what you referred to ?—Yes. 59. That was allotted .to him for himself?— Yes; with the consent of the tribe. It was challenged, and no one objected. I think that was the only piece he got for himself.