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grant for the Waiwiri Block, immediately south of the boundary? Is it not a fact that the Muaupoko, quite apart from the question of mana or influence, recognised in Ihaia Taueki a hereditary chief of the tribe ?—Yes. 162. But, so far as your knowledge and experience goes, the tribe never dream of entrusting the management of their lands to Ihaia in preference to Kemp?—No. 163. "You have associated with the Muaupoko Tribe from the time you were a child, and have heard all their affairs very freely discussed at public meetings and in the whares?—Yes. 164. You were familiar with Noa te Whata, who died last year at the age, it [is said, of a hundred and twenty, more or less ?—Yes. 165. He was the father of Eaniera te Whata ? —Yes. 166. And you have, with him, discussed hundreds of times the affairs of the tribe ?—Yes. 167. Was he not living for a long time in your father's house ?—He was living with/myself for some years. 168. You discussed the affairs of the people with him, both before and after the Land Court of 1873 ?—Yes. 169. And both before and after the Division Court of 1886 ?—Yes. 170. You know a little block we have been calling Waiwiri —No. 14—held by Kemp under Crown grant ?—Yes. 171. Did Noa ever say anything to you about this land, or Kemp's right to it?— Yes ; very often. 172. What did he say in regard to Kemp and his right to this land on those occasions?— The main substance of the matter was this : that he and Kemp individually, if it came to subdivision, really owned this land; that it was his and Kemp's together, but he left it to Kemp, and nobody else had a right to interfere with it. 173. It was the father of Raniera who was mentioned by Kemp as the one who might have claimed he had a right to be put in ?—Yes. 174. You are certain he was the man who said he could have had a claim, but he left it to Kemp ?—Yes; he told my son to get some of my sheep and put on this land, as a claim for his son. 175. When did Noa die ?—Either last year or the year before. 176. Was he in full possession of his faculties at the last ?—Yes; I believe he would have been alive now but for a little neglect. 177. You have heard the deed of release and discharge read ?—Yes. 178. You acted as licensed interpreter, and read the deed over and explained it to the Natives ? —Yes. 179. You remember quite well all the circumstances attending the meeting at which the deed was signed ?—I believe so. 180. Was there a full muster of the Muaupoko Tribe, save and except the small section we have been calling Ngatipariri, headed by Warena Hunia ?—Yes ; I think some of the latter were there. 181. You remember the speech which preceded the signing of that deed—was there a full discussion ?—Yes. 182. Do you remember my explaining to the people that in consequence of the action of Warena, who brought an action in the Supreme Court in the hope of compelling Kemp to account for past management and rents received, I was anxious to have from them an assurance that everything, so far as they were concerned, was perfectly right ?—Yes. 183. And that I had brought a deed up with me confirming everything that Kemp had done, and indemnifying him, so far as they were concerned, against any actions or demands?— Yes, you explained it to the people. 184. And that the deed I would ask them to sign excluded Block 11, except as to back rents ?— Yes. 185. Was Kemp present, or not ?—He was not. 186. In the discussion which followed, was a single word said in the way of blaming Kemp, or of dissatisfaction as to the past administration of the Muaupoko Estate?— Not that 1 heard. 187. Did not every speaker on the contrary say that he and she were perfectly satisfied with the manner in which Kemp had managed the affairs of the tribe in the past ?—Yes. 188. Was one word said at that meeting in respect of Kemp's occupation of No. 14 or any expectation on the part of the people that this land should be returned to them ?—Not that I heard. 189. And you were there all the time?— Quite so. 190. So that if any member of the tribe, which you say was fully represented there, had murmured or expressed dissatisfaction about No. 14 you must have heard it ?—Certainly I should. 191. You remember the Supreme Court action in 1894 s ? You were present at the meetings of the people at Horowhenua which preceded and followed that action ? —Yes. 192. It was then matter of notoriety in the district that Kemp had leased, sold, or mortgaged to me the Waiwiri Block ? —Yes. 193. You can state as a matter of fact that it was known to the whole of the Muaupoko ? Yes. 194. Did you at any of those meetings ever hear a word about this being a trust property held by Kemp on behalf of the people ?—No. 195. When did you, so far as you remember, hear for the first time that it was to be set up that this belonged to the people ? Did you ever hear it before the questions put to me at the Bar of the House ?—Not that I know of. 196. From anything you heard here or elsewhere, had you a suspicion that a trust was to be set up in regard to No. 14 ?—Not that I know of. The only Native that took an interest in it or about it was Eaniera, who claimed something in it.