G.—l

30

breakers there 50ft. and 60ft. high. That Avas when I was searching for the body of the late Major Jackson. 400. With regard to the boundary-surveys of the blocks, are they surveyed before being brought into Court?—Yes, the external boundaries. Then subdivisions are ordered by the Court. 401. Well, in relation to dealing with the Natives for their lands, if the Government would enter into an arrangement for the leasing of their lands, making merely these boundary-surveys to the blocks, and setting aside reserves which the Natives might Avish to have for their own purposes, such as the running of cattle and sheep, for cultivations, and for pas, burying-grotinds, and fishingstations, and if the Government were to give them a rent in perpetuity, such rent to be fixed by an expert in valuing land, along with the NatiA'e Committee managing this block, and then the Government to subdivide it, and afterwards to sublet to persons Avishing to settle on it, on terms, for instance, similar to those ruling in the settlement of Crown lands—do you think the Natives would be satisfied with a scheme like that ? Of course, the Government would undertake the cost of roadand bridge-formation, and the Natives would receive a fixed rental from the Government for ever ? ■ —Yes, they would fall in with it if they were satisfied with the rent to be given them. 402. That Avould be settled by their own Committee in conjunction Avith the expert appointed by the Government ? —I am satisfied that they would if you could come to an arrangement With them as to terms. 403. Then, you say that they Avould be likely to approve of the arrangement if the Government undertook the cutting-up of the land and Avent to all the subsequent expense of subdivision, surveying for settlement purposes, and the cost of formation of roads and bridges, so as to afford access to the land ?—I think they would like their reserves cut out before entering into the arrangement. 404. That is one of my conditions? —I think that, before entering into the agreement, you will find that the GoA'ernment will have to do that. I know that was the only difficulty up there—as to the proportion of the reserves. 405. Say that out of this Mock of 6,000 acres one-third was reserved for them for their own use ? —I have no doubt that there would be no difficulty with such an arrangement. 406. The Government would then lease the balance of 4,000 acres in perpetuity, at a rent to be fixed by the Native Committee and an expert in land-valuation to be appointed by the Government. Do you think they would fall in with such an arrangement ?—I think they would ; I have no doubt they would. I knoAv that they haA'e an anxiety to lease rather than to part altogether Avith the land. What about surveys ? 407. The Government would undertake that? —But individuals could not get their title from the Land Court until a map had been placed before the Court delineating the external boundaries of the district. I know that a tremendous amount of jealousy exists' amongst the Native owners themselves. For instance, take the case of the Kinehaka Block, which is owned by the greatest tribe of that district. There is a terrible lot of jealousy in connection with that, arising out of the fact that some of the owners belong to other hapus, Avho have acquired an interest ifl it, and got mixed up with the Kinehaka people through their ancestors formerly fighting along with them. They are not relatives ; and what the one party agrees to the other party objects to. 408. Then, each party Avould appoint its own representatives to servo on the Committee ? —I am only instancing the tremendous jealousy existing in this Kinehaka Block as an illustration of the complications arising from portions of separate hapus being mixed up in the ownership of particular blocks. 409. There are no small subdivisions of these blocks ? —The smallest is 10,000 acres. 410. Mr. Bees.] Then, they could subdivide so as to arrive at a satisfactory arrangement?— Yes, that might be done. In some of these cases it is difficult to get them disconnected. The Kinehaka people would not come to an understanding with the others. 411. The cost of the outer surveys for the whole block is an expense that must be faced?—Of course they must be done. 412. Now, in the case of good land such as you have bean describing to us, would it, if cut up into individual titles, fetch enough to render the possession of a share advantageous ?—Oh, no ! It would cost more than the whole interest in the land is worth. I have stated the same thing before in the office here. I haA'e recommended them strongly with respect to the Kinehaka West Block. They ought to run their subdivision of it by trigonometrical Avork, so as to incur only a trifling expense. Of course, in making such a recommendation I am speaking against my own interests, but still I know the harm that would be done by the other course. 413. Then, it would be more for the advantage of the Natives and Europeans simply to cut up these lands, not for title, but for purposes of settlement ?—Certainly —run merely a line of subdivision between the portions of the large hapus, and then cut the land up. There is another matter that I would like to speak about—in respect to payment for surveys. I think that at present we surveyors are placed in a false position. Under present arrangements with the Natives we get a lien for 5 per cent, to pay the cost of survey, but Ave have no means of recovering it. It may remain for ten or fifteen years. I think the Government ought to step in, cut off a portion of the land for the cost of the surveys, and then pay the surveyors. It puts us in a false position to have to sue the Natives for these charges. Whatever is done, I hope that, at any rate, steps will be taken to put us right in this matter. I think it is a thing the Government ought to take into its own hands. I Avas speaking to Mr. Smith yesterday Avith respect to that block at Aotea Harbour, Avhich I think the Government ought to take up. The Natives have no money, and Avould be willing to deal. 414. You think that a subdivision as between large hapus, and the signing of the deeds by representative people of the owners, Avould be all that is necessary?—Yes. I think Mr. James Mackay Avrote a pamphlet once on our dealings with Maori lands. Mr. Mackay : Yes, he did.