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only five or six, we could not go on without somebody else. We should have to go outside for young men. I think you will admit that. The alternative is either to take on young men, or lads and train them. Mr. Elvines : Mr. Hannay will find that there are a flock of young men he could bring back who have passed their clerkship : rated cadets of twenty-four that I know of. Mr. Hannay : You would then have to fill up his place in the country. We have not many cadets of twenty-four. Mr. Maxwell: I think there is only one lad in the service of twenty-four. We have them all registered. Mr. Hannay : The great bulk of the lads are at £105 a year. Mr. Elvines: Our proportion as to cadets is one to three clerks and stationmasters, and in your proportion you seem to exclude porters. Our proportion of these is one to four. The proportion you really wish to put for our acceptance is two to seven, which makes it rather higher. You will really have to be restricted close in that matter. Mr. Hannay: As regards unskilled labour in the traffic department, we have not the proportion you ask. Mr. Elvines : When you take the proportion, then you should restrict the number to a greater extent. Mr. Hannay : How are you going to get the staff if you do not get the cadets ? Mr. Elvines : The proportion is far less. It is only one in three. Mr. Hannay : No, one to four. Mr. Elvines : That is one in four. I think you really have, as far as I recollect the numbers, quite the proportion we allow. Mr. Hannay: The rule has been to take on as many lads as, and no more than, you want to teach the business. I think a year or two ago the business was at a standstill. There was no movement in the staff because there was no increase in business; but last year there was an enormous increase in business, and we took on lads. Next year, if there is no increase in business, we shall not take them on. Mr. Winter: We do not wish to say you should not take on sufficient cadets to keep up the staff you require for the proper working of the service; but we wish you to make these cadets clerks as soon as they have been in the service the prescribed time: not to keep them as cadets at £105 for an indefinite period ; because they are virtually boys as far as salaries are concerned, though they do clerks' work. Mr. Hannay : All these cadets receiving £90 a year are only lads of nineteen or twenty years of age. Mr. Winter : Suppose they stop there until they are thirty years of age : would you keep them at that salary ? Mr. Hannay : It has been already stated that there is only one at twenty-four years of age. Mr. Winter : But you will admit that there is any amount of room for such a thing to take place. It is possible that he might stop there until he died or left the service. Mr. Hannay : If a lad did not show that he was capable of becoming a clerk, he would not be kept. What you say could not possibly occur. Mr. Winter: You said there was a lad of twenty-four. Mr. Hannay : Yes; but he did not start as a lad :he started late. Mr. Winter: You take on cadets, and when they rise to a certain figure—£los or thereabouts —they stop for some time. You say not long ; but they do stop sometimes. There is a block of boys all pushing upward, and these cadets are taken to do clerks' work of most descriptions. Mr. McKerroiv : That is their business. Mr. Maxwell : Their promotion depends on their ability to learn. Mr. Winter : But when their ability is proved they should receive a clerk's salary of £110, with proper regulations for reaching £140. If you say that every cadet retained in the service shall rise from £105 to £110, and so on up to £140, we shall say no more. They are not apprentices; they are in the Commissioners' employ, and are supposed to be retained, not discharged. Mr. Maxwell: In that case we should have to let a number go out to look for employment elsewhere after serving their time. Mr. Haden : The difficulty is this : we cannot get further than a clerk. Mr. McKerrow : " Cadet " is a genteel term for an apprentice. Mr. Haden : This is the objection, as far as I can see : Cadets are young fellows who get £105 a year. They are shifted about; but when a cadet has finished his time he should get an increase of salary according to your scale. He should not be kept at £105. At present he might be sent out to push a man out at £140 a year. Mr. Hannay: There are no men pushed out. Mr. Haden :It may arise. It is a matter of economy. If you can get a man at £105 to do the work of one at £120 you will get him. In every case where he is promoted does he get the pay of the man he succeeds ? Mr. Hannay : Certainly not. Mr. Haden: Does he get the pay of the class ? Mr. Hannay : A cadet gets £105, and is really kept at boys' work, and your proposal is that the moment he has served five years he should get £120, although he is getting only boys' work to do. Mr. Haden : After an apprentice serves his time in a shop he expects to be employed as a journeyman. Mr. Maxwell : Say there are twenty, thirty, or forty cadets getting perhaps £105 : they are eligible to Toe put in a higher place, and there has never been'any of this large block. As we have 7— D. 4.