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643. Mr. Guinness.] Can you tell the Committee whether, in your opinion, if a duty of ss. were put on Newcastle coal, it would or not have the effect of considerably raising the price of coal to the consumer ?—Anything I might say on that would be only an opinion. As I said yesterday, I would consider it impolitic for the price to be raised to the consumer, and if a duty were put on I think the Legislature should fix the selling maximum price by statute. 644. Mr. Fish.] If the mine-owners would be benefited by an increased output, that would be the profit to them without increasing the price to the consumer ?—I will put it this way: If our trade is, say, 7,000 tons, we are losing money; but if it is 15,000 tons we make the mine a paying concern even at the same prices. 645. Mr. Guinness .] What is the price of the different classes of coal put free on "board at the Port of Greymouth? —Our selling-prices vary somewhat. We have been charging a little more for gas-coal —we have been trying to get 14s. for it. We succeed in some cases. We have to compete with the market. Our present selling-prices at Greymouth may be taken at 12s. 6d. for round coal—the best coal. 646. What for gas-coal ? —That is not sold free on board at all—it is sold at a delivered price. 647. Mr. Fish.] At the port of consumption ?—Yes. 648. But, suppose the gas people went down to Greymouth, what would you charge ? —We would get 14s. if we could; but we would not lose trade, and we would perhaps have to sell for 12s. 6d. It is a matter of trade. For trade you must go into competition. Where we have no competition we would get a better price. 649. Mr. Guinness.] Then the highest price would be 14s. if you could get it ? —Yes. 650. Are there any other classes of coal ? —For " nuts" we get Bs. or 95.; for slack we do not get more than 4s. or ss. There is very little coal sold at Greymouth " free on board : " we have to send our coals into the market, and provide agencies for the sale of them. The average return, taking the whole all round, does not give these prices, nor anything like it. We are obliged to enter into business and compete with the Newcastle coals for the purpose of getting trade. The net return which we gather from our branches does not give these prices. 651. The Union Steamship Company are interested as shareholders in the Grey Valley Mine ?—■ Yes. 652. Before this company was formed you were the owner of several steamers ?—Yes ; I was the owner of some steamers. I had some others chartered. 653. Do they belong to the Union Company or to the Grey Valley?—l sold to the Union Company. 654. Then, in point of fact, you and the Union Company owned all the steamers engaged in the coal trade, with the exception of the Anchor Line?—That is correct. 655. Have you a copy of the agreement between the Union Company and the Grey Valley Company as to the rate for carrying coal ? —I have not a copy with me, but I know what are the terms of it. 556. What are the terms ?—The terms consist of an arrangement by which they provide us with all the tonnage that we require for New Zealand at scheduled rates, conditional on that we reserve all our coal-carrying to New Zealand ports for them. That arrangement is subject to be terminated by six months' notice on either side. 657. Is there any provision in the agreement prohibiting your company from selling coals to other companies or persons?—None at all; but we reserve the carrying for them. 658. If you wanted to send a cargo to one of your own agencies in any other part of New Zealand would they have to provide the steamer?—Yes. 659. Suppose the Centennial Company, or the Elderslie Company, sent a steamer down to Greymouth for coal for their own use?—They would get it if it was for their own consumption ; but if they were getting it to sell and deliver it in New Zealand we would not supply them. I will justify that action if you like. 660. You do not want them to go into the competition ? —That is not the reason ; it is this : You must either provide your own tonnage or you must make an arrangement with some other firm that is able to give you the tonnage. No matter whether you own these steamers or any one else, you must keep your work for them. As there is only a limited trade in New Zealand, and you give 5,000 tons of it to other steamers to carry, the output is not thereby increased, and, as the Union Company are bound to do that work according to the agreement, it is only right to keep the whole of them. Suppose I had steamers myself to carry all my freight, does any one suppose that I would supply the " Centennial " and lay my own steamers up ? I would not do it in that case : why should Ido it with any one else ? If there is 100,000 tons to carry, the case is not altered. The Union Company must find steamers to carry it. What would they do if we were to give freights to other steamers? This is a mutual arrangement —it is mutually advantageous to both. 661. Mr. Fish.] If you did not make that arrangement you would have the risk of getting no bottoms at all ? —Yes ; if we have sufficient tonnage for winter it is double our requirements in the summer time. 662. Can you do any foreign business?—That is done chiefly by sailing-vessels that make the round trip going to England. This arrangement does not place us at any disadvantage whatever. They wish to get the freights :it suits us to give them the freights. We, of course, wish to get the freights as low as possible. I have been working this arrangement for the last twelve months, and there is no disadvantage whatever either to the owners or the public. I say that I am free to negotiate with any other firm ifliless the Union Company shall concede to me such terms as I would obtain, and, if they refuse, I would be free to recommend that arrangements be made with another firm. 663. Mr. Guinness.] Is not the effect of it to keep up the rate of freight to a certain fixed amount ?—lt helps that, no doubt—it has that tendency. I consider that, from a trade point, is justifiable. What has any of us to do in business if we cannot make it pay ? 4—l. 6.