L—6.

587. Are you aware whether it is over 5, 6, or 6_ per cent.? —The official returns will give you better information on that point. 588. The Chairman.] Were it not for the working of the coalfields in Greymouth, would there be any revenue at all to the railway?—None at all; at all events, none that would pay for its working. 589. It is derived entirely from the haulage of coal and passenger-traffic, the passengers being mostly those connected with employments in the coal-mines? —Yes; the wharfage dues also are included in railway revenue. 590. Mr. Guinness.] I see by a return which we have before us that you surrendered your original lease in the Brunner Mine ?—Yes ; I did that with the view of eventually opening up a larger trade. I went to England to get more capital to work it. I asked to get an extended lease. Although the lease itself did not show there was any provision for it, the Act itself contained a provision for an extended lease of twenty-one years. I was not in a position to put enough capital into it to work it, but I offered to double the output, and more than double the obligations orthe lease. That would have given a largely-improved revenue, conditional on the royalty being kept at 6d. a ton. 591. The obligation of the lease was 30,000 tons ?—When I entered, in 1874, it was 12,000 tons. It increased 3,000 tons annually until it came to 30,000 tons : that was the maximum. I always complied with the terms of the lease. I thought I was justified at the time of making this offer to increase the output, by reason of ,the previous progressive increase. I went to England before this question was decided. I was led to believe that the conditions of my application would be complied with. However, the matter was not completed before I left. While I was in England cablegrams passed in regard to the conditions on which a lease would be given to me. Upon the decision being communicated to me, I could only say " Yes." The condition was that royalty would have to be paid at Is.—being 6d. more—for the unexpired term and Is. for the extended term. There was some apparent concession in the matter of railage, but it was not fixed so. The condition in the first lease was that it was not to exceed 25., so that the railway authorities might make a less charge if they thought fit. So that I do not know that there was any great concession. But it was put to me in that way. I give you these particulars to show why I took a lease with such a large output at Is. per ton royalty. I thought I was quite justified, looking at the past progression of business, in desiring to develop the mine, and I desired to obtain sufficient capital for that purpose ; but it turned out that neither the lease for the unexpired term nor as extended for twenty-one years was good enough. That was how the matter stood with regard to this mine. 592. Then, the output you are bound to comply with is 30,000 tons ? —I am not sure when the increased output commences. 593. During the year 1888, what was the output from the Brunner property ?—lt would be, I should think, 60,000 tons. 594. The official return is here—s4,ooo tons? —That is correct. 595. Will you tell us how the extra output is obtained from the Coal-pit Heath and Wallsend Mines ?—The total from the combined mines is 66,937 tons for that period ; for the Brunner Mine alone it is 5,700 tons. .596 Now, according to this return, it should be 85,000 tons. The obligations of the leases are these: for the Brunner, 45,000 tons for the first eight years, 75,000 for the next twenty-eight years, and 100,000 for the remainder of the lease ; the Coal-pit Heath, for the first eight years 25,000, for the next series 30,000, and for the remainder of the term 60,000 ; then, the Wallsend for the three terms, 2,000, 5,000, and 15,000, the lease being for sixty-three years. The miners say that it is through this amalgamation that the conditions of the leases have not been complied with ?—The amalgamation has nothing to do with the matter of output at all: that depends entirely upon other considerations. 597. Is there any provision in any of these leases that the output from one mine is to be taken to make up for the deficiency in others ?—No ; but there is another provision that, in the event of failure or fault in the mine, the output may be suspended, and taken from another. In the case of the Brunner we might do this, for there is a fault in that mine. But I do not ask that to be taken into account. The fact is, you cannot work the three mines in Greymouth unless you get a very large output. As regards the miners, I can show to this Committee that the complaint on their side is groundless, for if we employ half the number more in one mine we shall employ just so much less in the others. These mines lie within a radius of half a mile from each other. Where the miners complain, it is in this way: When the Newcastle strike took off there was very great slackness of trade; a number of miners were dispensed with ; and work was suspended temporarily in the Brunner Mine. It became then a question with the owners which of the three mines would be laid off. The Brunner Mine is self-draining; the other two mines require pumping; therefore it was laid oft. We draw all the output from the other two mines. We might have drawn all the output from one, and it would not affect the market one iota. As winter approached we saw that we might work the Brunner Mine advantageously in small coal, as, owing to the fault referred to, we had no solid ground to work in that mine pending further heavy outlay. In all coal-mines the price for pillar work is something less than for solid working. It was practically paying the men to fill this coal. But while the work is much easier for the men it is more costly for the owner, for the owner has to provide a double amount of timber for this class of work. He has also to provide extra " road-men "to follow up the work more rapidly. All these expenses make pillar work almost prohibitory for the owner. What is he to do if he has no margin of profit —if he can effect no" saving to meet this extra outlay. The manager guaranteed the miners that, if they went to work and did not make up to the average of what the rest of the miners got, he would bring it up to the average. W Te say that not only could they make 12s. a day, but they could have made 15s. a day; but the minimum would have been 12s. a day :^l2s. is the price (the minimum) of a day's work of seven hours.

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