7

I.—3b

78. What was the appearance of the writing of Mare Kura ; did it appear fresh or old when you saw it ?—The writing was undoubtedly fresh done. 79. How did you know it was fresh done?—lf you get the original deed I will show it. My attention was drawn to it and I saw it in a moment. 80. Do you mean by the appearance of the ink ? —Yes. 81. Was this signature specially attested? —Yes ; it was specially and separately attested, and made to appear as if it was done at the time the deed was drawn. 82. Do you mean there was no separate date ? —No, there was not. 83. Who was the attesting witness ? —lt docs not purport to be attested by a Justice of the Peace. 84. Are there any other signatures of owners of land in the Mangapapa Block except Mare Kura? —I think not; in fact, I know there are not. 85. Have you any other evidence to give in regard to that document?—l spoke to the man who put this name there improparly —George Stockman. Immediately 1 saw this name put on I spoke to him about it. 86. Did ho admit or deny that it had been put on : what did he say ?—I said to him that he would get into trouble for putting the name of Mare Kura upon the deed. It is known as " Gillies' deed " in Mokau. 87. The Chairman.] How did it get that name?—His name was written on the original agreement. 88. Mr. Hutchison.] Who is Gillies ?—He was manager of the National Bank in New Plymouth. 89. Mr. Richmond.] When you told Stockman that he would get into trouble, what was his reply ? —He said Major Brown told him to do it. 90. Mr. Carroll.] What was Major Brown? —He was the attesting witness of Mare Kura. 91. The Chairman.] Did Stockman tell you that the signature was not put there in his presence ? —He told me he put it there. 92. What did he say ?—He said Major Brown and Nevil Walker were present when it was done, and also that Mare Kura was present. 93. Mr. Taipua.] Did Mare Kura sign the name herself ? —Stockman signed Mare Kura and her husband attested the signature. 94. Mr. Hutchison.] What date was that ?—lt was October last, at the Land Court in Waitara. 95. The Chairman.] When Mare Kura's signature was attached, Stockman, Brown, and Mare Kura were present ?—Yos. 96. And Mare Kura's husband? —Yes. 97. What was his name ? —Heremaia, an adult male. Walker was also present. 98. Mr. Richmond.] Have you any correspondence in your possession with regard to Stockman's action in the matter?—l have some letters of Mr. Stockman in my possession. 99. Would you produce them ?—Yos ; I do not object. 100. The Chairman.] Have they a bearing on this question ; wo do not want them unless they have a direct bearing on the subject now before the Committee?—l have only been examined as to the lease and the agreement. Here is a letter [produced] dated the 10th June, 1887, the purport of which is that Mr. Stockman was working with Mr. Owen and Mr. Richmond, and that he would have nothing whatever to do with Walker. It is a letter from Stockman, and Owen, and Te Eeronga, and is in Stockman's handwriting. 101. Mr. Parata.] What relation is Stockman to Te Berenga ?—None whatever. 102. Mr. Taipua.] When Mare Kura's name was placed on the deed did she make her mark to her signature ? —To the best of my recollection the word Mare Kura was written in pencil and ink put on the top of it. There is no mark to Mare Kura's name. 103. Do you think the Natives were aware that the terms of the lease had been extended to ninety-nine years? —Not a bit of it. There are seven other names to that agreement besides Mare Kura's, and not one of them are owners. They were put there in 1881, and the land did not go through the Court until 1886, and then Mare Kura proved to bo an owner. 104. Mr. Monk.] Had you the impression that there was a similarity between the signature in pencil and the inking of it afterwards ? Do you think it was done by the same person ?—The inking followed the pencilling. 105. Mr. Parata.] Can Mare Kura read or write?—She is no scholar. She is not above the average Maori as to scholarship. I think she can read Maori. 106. If she could read and write Maori, why did Stockman put her name to the agreement?— I cannot tell you. 107. Mr. Monk.] Do you know of any document with her signature to it ? Have you seen her signature at any time ?—Her signature is a scrawl. 108. Mr. Parata.] Her name was put to the agreement to legalise the agreement ?—I could not say. It would legalise the agreement. She is the only owner whose name is to that agreement. The other seven are not owners. 109. Mr. Hutchison.] You say you had a conversation with Stockman last year?—Yes. 110. When did you inform Mr. Eichmond of it ? —The next day, I think. 111. Very soon after?—Almost immediately. Immediately I "spotted" the new name I spoke to Mr. Eichmond and others about it.

Sib and Gentlemen, — Wellington, Bth June, 1888. Eeferring to the first question put to me in the ease of Mr. Richmond's petition, conveying the effect that Stockman's agreement dated the 27th December, 1881, was the basis of the certificates issued by Chief Judge Macdonald, I bog to say that I in no way assent to or indorse this