I.—ll.

is that it maintains the principle of authority—the principle that there is a moral standard to which it is our duty to conform ourselves. In the secular system this is ignored or not brought forward prominently, and the consequence is that the visible and tangible has all its own way, and the principles of Christianity are forgotten and ignored, and at last despised. 661. Then, does not very much depend on the character of a religious teaching that is given ?— Certainly; it depends in a great measure, but not entirely.; because, of course, the Catholic Church is one that maintains the strictest code of morality, and the English Church, the Wesleyans, and Presbyterians have all retained a great deal of what the Catholic Church teaches, and therefore it is all in the right direction. 662. Hon. Mr. Reynolds.] Do I understand that you would grant the same privileges to every other denomination as to Roman Catholics ?—Yes ; fair-play. 663. That is, a fair contribution from the public funds?—Yes. The Catholic Church does not claim that all the colonists should be brought up to be Catholics; it only speaks for itself. It claims that amount of justice which it also claims for everybody else. 664. Mr. De Lautour.] You told the Chairman that the cost of the buildings in Auckland was £28,000?—Yes; about that sum. 665. But we have no indication yet as to what is the cost of maintaining these schools?—l am sorry lam not able to give the precise figures. I may safely say, however, that the cost comes up to about £2,400 per annum, which, of course, represents a considerably smaller outlay than for the State schools, having the same number of children. 666. I think you stated that your schools were supported by the school-pence of the children and subsidies given by the clergy?—Yes ; and also, in the first place, the contributions given by the parents —the Catholic body at large. 667. Where do the subsidies given by the clergy come from?—They come ultimately from the generosity or charity of their respective congregations. 668. Then, really, these also come from the Catholic laity?—Yes. There are also certain cases —as in my case—in which a bishop gets subsidies outside the colony altogether, such as from Europe. These also help to do the work. 669. Eegarding the £2,400, the fees given help to pay that sum ?—Yes. 670. I understand you to say that was the cost of maintaining the schools each year?—Yes. 671. Hon. Mr. Beynolds.] Without fees?—lncluding the fees. The fees fall far short. 672. Mr. De Lautour.] Ido not think we have got very clearly yet what are the grounds of the Catholic laity's conscientious objection to the State system. You thought we were asking you to go at some length into the question ?—The grounds are these : that children have to be brought up as Christians and as citizens, and we contend that when the child is educated only with a certain amount of secular instruction he is only partially educated, and to be properly educated he must be provided with a moral training, by which he learns his duties to his fellow-creatures. And, as it is important, therefore, that children should be educated both in their intellectual and moral being, we have a most decided objection to a system which excludes the moral part of their being, and looks simply and solely to the intellectual portion. 673. Then, you consider a moral and religious training synonymous?—ln that sense, Yes. 674. Do you mind telling us whether your clergy directly teach that the parents should keep their children from the State schools ?—Where we have schools which are competent and efficient, then we should certainly have no doubt about pressing upon the Catholic parents the necessity of fulfilling the first duty of a parent, which is to educate their children as they ought to be educated; and clearly they lie under the obligation of sending them to those schools where alone they can be educated properly. 675. Hon. Mr. Menzies.] Whom do you consider to be the proper authorities to give this religious or moral instruction in schools ?—ln the first place, it is the first duty of the parents to bring up their children in their tenderest years with the first principles of religion. Then, as the children get more fully developed, it happens very often that a good Christian home is also the best place for a truly morai and religious training ; but in all cases it has to be supplemented by the teaching body of the Church, because it is the special duty of the bishops and priests of the Church to fulfil the precept of our Lord to go and teach all things that He commanded them. 676. The Committee has understood you to say that you approve of denominational teaching, and that the State should contribute the same capitation to Roman Catholic schools as to,other schools. It is clear that there may be a divided control there. What do you consider would be the line of demarcation between the State on the one hand and the denomination on the other? —The School Inspectors would be of two classes, as we have in England. There are State inspectors and religious inspectors. It is the duty of the State inspectors to ascertain that the secular knowledge is up to the mark, but it dees not come under his province to inquire what the amount of religious knowledge is. 677. And with whom would rest the appointment and dismissal of teachers?—The State for the secular inspectors and the Church for the religious inspectors. 678. Then, there would be two sets of teachers ?—No; two sets of inspectors. There would be a State inspector, who would examine the children in geography, grammar, and so forth, and would pronounce whether they reached the required standard, and another inspector would make his round in order to ascertain the extent of religious knowledge. 679. Then, I understand you to say that the teachers appointed by the Government would teach all the secular branches, and that the instruction in religious and moral subjects would be given by the denominations .?—-'J think we are going on different lines a little. You seem to suppose that the secular teachers are simply and solely appointed by some Central Board of Education. As I take it, we have our Catholic schools, and we appoint our teachers. If these are found to be inefficient, then the State says, " This will not do; you must have efficient masters." 680. Then, I understand now that it would not be the State who would appoint the teachers, but the managers of the schools? —Yes.

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