I.—ll.

got value for their money. Beyond that the Catholic authorities would have the control—that is, the control of the teachers. We would satisfy the Government that they got value for their money, and if we do not give them value for the money let us have no money. 401. In all other points the Government control would continue?—Yes; as to the inspection of the school, the amount of secular knowledge of the pupils, and as to the fact whether the school gave value with regard to the money paid. Beyond that we would give the Government no control. 402. But on all secular matters they would have. What would be the effect of a school not giving value ?—lf the Inspector was not satisfied with the school as to efficiency the money could be withheld. 403. Mr. Fish.] I presume I am correct in assuming it to be your duty as bishop, and also the duty of your clergy, to instruct the laity not to send their children to the State schools ? —Yes; we do it. 404. Do you think if yourself and the clergy were to refrain from giving that instruction that the laity would send their children ?—I do not think they would. lam quite sure they would not as a body. 405. Eeferring to Otago, I believe I am correct in saying that when Father Moreau had charge of your present diocese the Catholic children went to the provincial schools ?—I am not aware of anything of the sort, because I found, on coming to Dunedin, he had a Catholic school himself. 406. Are you prepared to state that a large number of Catholic children did not then go to the provincial schools ?—I do not know ; I was not there. 407. You say that, in endeavouring to interfere with education, the State is going beyond its functions ?—No; I did not say that. I said the State, in becoming the schoolmaster of the country, is going beyond its functions. 408. Supposing it should be proved, on going into figures, that the denominational system would be entirely beyonds the means of the State, would you still advocate as you are now doing ?— As the logicians say, nego suppositum. 409. We may assume, then, that the teaching of the young, according to your belief, should be directly under the control of the various religious denominations?—l do. 410. Mr. Dodson.] Were the colleges and high schools included in the eighteen schools ?— Yes. 411. Mr. Barron.] I understood you to say that the introduction of Bible-reading into State schools would prevent the employment of Catholic teachers. There are Catholic teachers now in that employment ?—Very few. There are one or two pupil-teachers. There is one bond fide teacher, a female, that I know is now so employed. I think there is one pupil-teacher in Caversham. 412. If Bible-reading were introduced into the State schools it would prevent the employment of Catholic teachers?—Yes. 413. Mr. J. Buchanan.} Have you heard that in the neighbouring colonies the system of Government education has developed peculiar evils of its own, in Victoria and New South Wales ?—■ Judging from what I have read I have come to that conclusion. Of course I have no personal knowledge of it. 414. Are you aware that, at this present moment, one of the Parliaments is so engaged in amending the law in reference to offences against young females as to increase the punishment for teachers in public schools ?—There is a Bill before the House to that effect, I think. 415. In reference also to the employment of teachers by your denomination, have you not peculiar facilities for obtaining aid of that kind at a very reasonable rate, arising from the circumstance that it becomes a religious duty ? —Yes; it is only on that account we are able to have schools in many places where, without that aid, we could not possibly have schools under present circumstances. 416. Those ladies and gentlemen are, of course, content with a very moderate maintenance?—■ Content with a mere living. 417. In fact, the system is somewhat analogous, I think, to that which once prevailed in France, when the Freres Chretiens were the teachers ?—Yes. 418. Mr. Swanson.] If the State pays the teachers of these denominational schools, would not that be practically giving State aid to religion ?—No; because they are paid for teaching secular subjects. 419. Hon. the Chairman.'] Is there anything further you would like to say to the Committee?— On the part of the Catholic body I have come here to ask the Parliament of the country to do what we conceive is an act of justice, and what we conceive as the Parliament of the country they are bound to do—that is, not to take from us money which they^ spend upon other people's children, but let our own children have the money we ourselves contribute for educational purposes. We think that is just, and that is our demand. The matter of education in accordance with our principles is one of life and death with us, and we consider we are under an injustice and suffering a hardship in being obliged to pay our share of the taxation of the country without profiting by the expenditure on education ; and to be at the enormous expense of providing schools for our own children—a thing we are now bound to do—paying towards the free education of other people's children.

(Telegram.) • Dunedin, 24th August, 1883. Report of my evidence is correct. I authorize you to put my signature to it. Letter by post. Hon. Colonel Brett, Parliament House, Wellington. Bishop Moban.

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