I.—ll

22

payment per results ?—My answer to that is this : I think we are entitled in justice and equity to the same capitation allowance as is given for other people's children. 312. Perhaps you have some idea of what would be sufficient ?—I suppose we would be satisfied with what the other people got. 313. Then the amount would have to be fixed by the Education Boards, according to what was paid to other schools ?—Certainly ; we ask no more. 314. Mr. De Lautour.] I think you said you had eighteen schools in your diocese. I did not observe whether you told the Committee the cost of those schools ?—For land and buildings for school purposes, £30,500, in the last twelve years. I am not able to give the statistics before twelve years ago, as I only came to the country a little over twelve years ago; but during my time in the country we have spent on the erection of schools, and providing sites and buildings for school purposes, £30,500. I cannot state accurately what the cost of maintenance has been during that period, but I could give a very good guess. I know what the maintenance would cost the Government —-£5,500 a year. It does not cost us so much as it would cost the Government, owing to the manner in which we work; and I think lam speaking justly and truly when I say it has cost us about £3,000 a year. The way I arrive at that is this: we have at the present moment nine male teachers, independently of pupil-teachers, and thirty female teachers, independently of pupiland assistant-teachers, and, taking one with another, all round, they cost us about £100 a year, and that would make about £3,000 annually, and that is about what it costs us; and the cost to the Government, for the same number of children, would be £5,500. 315. Is not the pressure upon your people more excessive in country districts than in thicklypopulated districts?—l do not know that it is more excessive, because of the extra cost on the buildings and the enhanced value of the land in the thickly-populated parts. 316. In some country districts are there not a greater proportion of Catholics—for instance, at St. Bathans?—l am not prepared to say that Catholics are in the majority in some country districts. lam not prepared to say that even at St. Bathans they are in a majority ; but I think at St. Bathans there are more children attending the Catholic school than attending the Government school. lam under that impression, but lam not certain. 317. Mr. Munro.] Is there any possibility of the bodies agreeing amongst themselves as to a class-book containing religious instruction ?—None whatever; at all events, so far as we are concerned. 318. There is no common Christianity ?—Not for us. We must teach our religion wholly and fully, or not at all. 319. You know the system agreed to —that of the Commissioners—in Ireland?—The Catholics were never a consenting party. 320. Would the Catholics be content with a capitation grant ? —They will be glad of anything in the direction of justice, but they will never be satisfied with anything short of complete justice. 321. Mr. Swanson.] I think you stated that the Catholics never received any endowment or monetary assistance from the Government? —None whatever in my diocese. 322. Do you say, as an absolute fact, that the Catholics have received no educational endowments ?—Not in my diocese. 323. I am talking about the Catholics of the colony?—They have some small endowments in other dioceses. 324. Do you consider it the duty of the State to see that its children are educated ? —I do not think it is. I think the State is going beyond its function in becoming a schoolmaster. 325. Do you think the majority of the Catholics of the colony are of that opinion ? —Yes; those who are capable of forming an opinion, who are sufficiently educated and sufficiently instructed to understand the question. 326. Are you aware that some such proposition as you have made has been in practice in the colony, where the money was divided amongst the different denominations ? —Yes. 327. Are you aware that it broke down completely?—-No, lam not; nor do I believe it either. 328. Are you aware that the people of your denomination in Auckland actually petitioned to have a different system ?—That does not prove that the denominational system broke down. It proves maladministration in Auckland, if you will, but it does not prove that the denominational system broke down. 329. If the Government find the money for the different denominations to pay the teachers, will that not transfer the servants of the State—the teachers—to be the servants of the clergy ?— No. 330. For instance, would you not claim the power to dismiss any teacher that does not suit you ?—Yes. 331. Then whose servant will he be ?•—-I should be able to dismiss him, but I would not interfere with the State paying him. The State can watch over the expenditure of its own money, but under the denominational system I will not have a master in my school who misconducts himself. 332. Have you any objection to anything now taught in the State schools?—Yes; there are a great many things taught which are odious to Catholics. 333. Will you state an instance ?—Take the histories. Any one acquainted with the histories will know that there are many things offensive to Catholics in these books. 334. Would it satisfy you if these histories were altered or dismissed from the schools altogether ?—No ; because I am opposed to the system altogether. 335. Would it be possible for the clergy to overtake the religious education by teaching on holidays, Sundays, and after school hours —if they were all energetic, and devoted as much time to it as you appear to do ? —No. 336. If this system of education you propose were agreed to, would it not have the effect of breaking up the present system of education ?—I will divide my answer to that question. First of all, even if it did, that would be no objection to my mind, because I am opposed to the system on