11

I.—ll.

73. Of course you are aware that our public schools are not taken advantage of by many outside your own particular Church ?—Certainly. 74. And the objection is that the moral tone of the public school is not such as they would like their children to acquire ?—Yes. 75. And, in consequence, they keep up private schools, to which they send their children. So that, if we are to have a change in our system, you admit that those who object to the moral tone of the public schools, whether on religious grounds or otherwise, should have a voice in that change ?—I suppose so; Ido not see any objection. We do not ask for others; we only speak for ourselves. 76. Is it from the absence, of religious training in the State schools, or rather that the religious training given is not in accord with the opinion of your Church, that you have an objection to the State schools?—lt would be from both. I cannot see how religion can be taught in the State schools, as we understand religion. We also object to the kind of teaching there might be there, because we do not believe in what is called common Christianity, because there is no such thing existing. We contend each religious denomination should have its own schools, if they think fit, and not be taxed double. We do not want for ourselves what any other religious denomination should not have, if it thought fit. We do not want to repeal the Act, but to see it so amended that we could make use of it, and get the funds we contribute. 77. You object altogether to the State system of education, because you think it never can be satisfactory as far as you are concerned?—Yes. 78. And that if a majority of the colonists think otherwise you must bow to the decision of the majority ?—I beg to differ from that. I say that minorities should not be bound down in matters of justice. If majorities want to do an injustice, minorities should be heard; that is done in all legislation. Possibly the minority now may become a majority, and it cannot be treated with injustice simply because it is a minority. 79. Mr. J. G. Wilson.] Are you aware whether there was ever at Home a combination between Catholics and other denominations for some form of moral training?—Not as far as I am aware; I am not personally aware of it. 80. Cannot you suggest some middle course to meet the case?—l am distinctly of opinion that no middle course is possible. 81. Hon. Dr. Grace.] Except, of course, payment by results? —Yes. 82. Hon. Mr. Dick.] Are you aware of a book published in Dublin containing selections from Scripture for Irish schools ? —I believe it exists, but it is a perfect dead-letter. Ido not know if the Catholics were parties to publishing the book, but it is a*, dead-letter. It was only to get over a difficulty with regard to English legislation; but it certainly was a dead-letter.

Monday, 6th August, 1883. Bishop Hadfield, examined. 83. The Chairman.'] My Lord, "What is your position in the Church of England ?—I am Bishop of the Diocese of Wellington. i 84. What is the extent of your diocese?—lt extends from the Waimata Eiver, on the East Coast, to the Tipoka Stream, a few miles on this side of Parihaka, and north to the Taupo country. 85. What is the total population of your diocese? —I believe about 68,000. 86. How many belong to the Church of England and how many to the Catholic Church?— About 33,000 to the Church of England. Ido not know how many Eoman Catholics there are. 87. What is the proportion belonging to the Church of England to the total population of New Zealand? —About 43 per cent, according to former official papers. I have recently not seen them distinguished. 88. And the Catholics ?—I do not know. 89. How many State schools are there in your diocese ?—I do not know. 90. Can you state the number of Catholic schools in your diocese ?—I do not know. 91. Are there any schools supported by the Church of England in your diocese?—No daily schools. We had two of the best schools in Wellington for many years until the present system was started. We have higher schools —one at Wanganui and one at Wellington. 92. Are there any Catholics in them?—l think not. We had Catholics at Wanganui some years ago, but some representation was made to their parents, and they were withdrawn. 93. Have the Catholics a conscientious objection to the State system of education?—l should think, without any doubt, they must have a conscientious objection to it. 94. Do you find the Catholic children have a better knowledge of Scripture than the children of other denominations ?—I cannot answer that question. 95. In non-religious branches of education are the Catholics quite up to the current standard ? —■'T?rom all I have heard I believe they are. I have no personal knowledge on the subject. 96. Have the Presbyterians, Wesleyans, &c, in your diocese any objection to attend the State schools? —I do not know. Our children attend the State schools, but many of us have a strong objection to it. I, for one, if I had children who could not be educated elsewhere, would not send them to the State school, whatever might be the legal penalty. 97. Then, you do not approve of the State system of secular education ?—I feel strongly convinced that a system of secular education is absolutely mischievous. I conceive the only object the State can have in educating its citizens is to make them good citizens, and it appears to me that mere secular instruction, such as physical science, can have no tendency to make people better citizens. As far as my acquaintance with history goes, there has never been a system of education in any civilized country where there was not some training with the view of teaching children that there was some divine power to whom they were responsible, and to enforce moral laws. I therefore think that a system of secular education is absolutely mischievous.