G.-2.

654. Were any reserves made under those instructions of Sir Donald McLean ? —No; because received a certain telegram on fhe 15th January last year, which I will lay before the Commission. 655. We wish to ask you, first, whether, before you commenced the survey of the Plains, you received instructions from the Government as to reserves. At the same time that they gave you instructions to go on with the survey of the Plains, had you instructions about Native reserves ? —No. 656. Then you went on with the survey of the Waimate Plains without making any reserves?— Tes, except this: that there were not many lands occupied by the Natives in the lands that were surveyed, and I informed them that they could have those which they had under cultivation. 657. Out of the lands that were surveyed ? —Tes. 658. After that, did you receive any instructions from the Government with reference to reserves ? —Tes. I received a telegram conveying the instructions of Sir George Grey, that I was not to make any reserves until they had been submitted to the Government, and that I was not to tell the Natives anything on the subject. The following is the telegram I received from Mr. Sheehan. It is dated " Grahamstown, Auckland, 15th January, 1879: The following from Sir George Grey for your information : ' Before any conclusion is come to regarding Native reserves in the Waimate Plains, or before any Native is informed by Major Brown on the subject, I would suggest that the Government should have the proposals before them and consider them.—G. Grey.' " 659. After receiving that telegram, and before the surveyors were turned off, did you proceed to make any reserves for the Natives on the Plains ? —I asked the Chief Surveyor to go round the lands which the Natives had under cultivation or in occupation; but he said he could not do so ; that he must survey them, and that then I could submit them to the Government. 660. Do you mean the lands they had in occupation on the surveyed block ? —No, inland ; because we were coming upon the question then. Inland of that line we came upon the question of whether it was necessary to make reserves. By way of getting over the difficulty, I went and saw the Natives on the Plains, and asked them to assist me in pointing out to the Government what they wished reserved. They told me that they had not asked the Government to survey the Plains, and declined to point out what they wished reserved; and Titokowaru told me to go to Parihaka and talk that question over. When Mr. Sheehan was here, on his way to the March meeting at Parihaka in 1879,1 told him that the telegram of Sir George Grey was doing harm, because it prevented my telling the Natives that they would have their cultivations and their villages secured to them ; and he said that I could do as I thought proper, and he would support me in it. We then went to Parihaka: and immediately after our return the order came for the surveyors to be removed off the Plains. After the surveyors had been removed, I received instructions from Mr. Sheehan in Wellington, early in April, 1879, to point out some reserves on the map of the land already surveyed; and he told me to bear in mind that the Government had decided to return from 20,000 to 25,000 acres to the Natives on the Plains : that is, from Waingongoro to Wahamoko, and up to the Alountain. I therefore pointed out about 3,000 acres on the map. At the same time, I said that possibly the Natives would prefer having some of the reserves transferred further inland. I reserved all the fishing-stations, and all the old pas and burial-grounds that 1 was aware of. 661. Do you recognize the map now produced as the map you reported upon to the Government? —Yes. 662. Were the Natives told of these reserves which you suggested to the Government ?—No. 663. Was not this map made in Wellington ? —Tes. 664. The reserves were selected there by you ? —ln April, on the day or the day before the date of my letter. 665. Had the lands been advertised for sale at that time ?—Tes. 666. Then when they were advertised for sale there were no reserves made on the map ? —No. 667. At the time when these reserves were proposed by you, there were some roads which are not marked on this plan, but which were proposed to be taken inland, were there not ? —I think there were; but the surveys were progressing inland from the block boundary on the map when they were stopped. 668. Were the surveys made under your own direction as Civil Commissioner, or Were they made under the direction of the Survey Department ?—They were made under the direction of the Survey Department. 669. How near to the Native settlements was the survey inland carried ?—The one that went nearest was the survey of the Waitara Meridian line. 670. How near did the line of the sectional survey approach ?—I could not say. It went very near some of Manaia's settlements iu that block ; but Alanaia did not object to anything the Government did. He was willing to put his trust in the Government. 671. So far as you know, then, the survey did not go into any of the cultivations ? —Tes ; there was one road that was surveyed through cultivated and fenced land belonging to Titokowaru. It went about 20 chains from his own village, and about 2 chains from lvokiri's, at Okaiawa. 672. Do you know what object there was in carrying the surveys so close to the villages as that ?— The surveyors informed me that they could not take the main line of road, which was to go from Normanby to Kaupukunui, any other way, and that it was going along a Native road which had been used by the Natives, who generally took the best track. When we were at Parihaka, Titokowaru complained of this road to Mr. Sheehan ; I told Mr. Sheehan that I had requested the Chief Surveyor to have it deviated either seaward or inland; and he informed Titokowaru of the fact. 673. Had the question of the necessity of a road from Normanby to Manaia been submitted to you as the officer in charge of the Native affairs of the district ? —No. 674. Would you yourself have thought it advisable to carry the survey so near the settlements, pending the question of making reserves for the Natives ? —1 did not anticipate the objection, and I should not have anticipated the objection that was raised to a Native cart-road being made use of as part of the scheme of laying out the district. In fact, I should have given that route the preference if the Natives had not expressed dissent.

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