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498. Mr. Montgomery^] Was this endowment placed under the control of the Church of England in the same manner as endowments were made to other religious bodies —Eoman Catholics, Wesleyans, &c. ?—Tes ; the grants arc exactly the same. 499. Do you know whether the others retain the moneys they receive?—l have not watched closely the course of events, but I believe they do. 500. Do you consider that the grant contemplated that this school should be in the nature of a high school ? —-No ; I consider this a great charitable institution. 501. Not in the nature of a high school?—-No; not in the nature of a high school, more in the nature of a free school. In fact, it was intended to be a poor school, iv which industrial training should be given to enable children to earn their own livelihood. 502. Industrial training was one of the objects of the Trust? —Tes. 503. But if the management does not carry out the Trust in consequence of a want of local supervision?—l think the Legislature should make inquiry, and some alteration should bo made. 504. The Committee is now making an inquiry which tho House of Representatives has directed to be made. If the result of this inquiry shows that the school is not well managed, and that it is in consequence of not having local supervision, should not the Legislature step iv and make a change ? — I think myself the whole question is so large and so important, and these endowments will become of such great value, that if the Legislature interferes at all, its inquiries should be directed to several schools, and then I think a change should be made in the whole system. I think that would be a wise plan. 505. Would you say a change should be made in the whole system because one of the endowments is not properly managed?—l think, if you find out that one of the endowments is not properly managed, you should take care that it is properly managed, or change the system. 506. That is one of the objects of this Committee. That is one of the questions I asked. If the result of this inquiry should show that the Trust has not been managed for the objects for which it was granted, should not an alteration take place? —I think, if you do not like the system, the people who manage badly should bo punished. I think, if the system is such that they can go on mismanaging the Trust without your beiug able to get at thotrt, you should change the whole system. 507. If one Trust is mismanaged, should that interfere with the whole of the Trusts ?—I should say, myself, yes, because it shows that they can be mismanaged, and that there must be something bad in the system. I believe the system may be made a matter of such benefit to the county that it should be dealt with comprehensively if it is dealt with otherwise than through the Courts. 50S. Mr. Travers (Counsel for the Trustees).] I believe you are familiar with the mode in which these charities are in force in England ? —Tes ; by reading and observation. 509. And I understand that, if there is any complaint requiring' the intervention of the Legislature, it is usual to refer it to a Committee of Inquiry, and the Legislative Committee inquires simply into the conduct of the Trust? —Tes ; if it is brought before Parliament. 510. And then the Attorney-General is instructed to enforce the Trust ? —Tes ; or some other officer of the Crown. 511. And that is tho course you suggest in this case, if it be necessary, unless the Trusts are such as cannot be carried out specifically, and then the Court of Chancery frames a scheme as nearly as possible in accordance with the original Trust, and that is usually done by the Attorney-General with the assistance of one of the Law Officers of the Crown—the costs of the case, where the parties have misconducted themselves, falling upon them personally ?—Tes ; they have to pay. 512. And if a new scheme is necessary the costs fall on the estate without the intervention of the Crown ? —Tes, that is the case ; but I should say, in truth, that this system has broken down, and if you read this " children of otiier poor and destitute persons" to mean inhabitants of the islands of the Pacific, you will see it has broken down. Perhaps, I ought to make a statement to the Committee, to show how r completely tho whole design has broken down. I persuaded the Bishop of New Zealand originally to go with a friend of mine, Captain Maxwell, who was in command of the "Dido," whom I induced to agree to take the Bishop to visit the islands in the Pacific, the " Dido " being about to make that voyage in order that the Bishop might determine if it was possible to establish a mission of the Church iv those seas. Acting upon my persuasion he went, and came back satisfied that a great mission could be established. That mission was the Polynesian Mission, and its head-quarters were made in New Zealand, this colony being the centre, therefore, of the Church of England Mission in the Pacific. It was also the centre of the Wesleyan Mission. A considerable grant was made in Auckland for them to erect a store upon, and to which their vessels came from the Pacific for stores. A grant for a house and garden was given to each, and they are still in existence; and also to tho Eoman Catholic Mission, of which this was the centre, a large grant of land was given. A large college was built in Auckland for the Eoman Catholics, and considerable endowments given to them. Auckland was to have been the centre from which all these missions radiated. It was then determined that an unhealthy site had been chosen at Kohimarama for the Polynesian Mission ; and I offered Bishop Patteson to give him Kawau, to prevent his removing the mission from New Zealand; but they were persuaded Norfolk Island was the best place, and I assisted them in obtaining a grant of land at Norfolk Island. All this has been published about Norfolk Island. The Committee will thus see that the plan has completely broken down to this extent: that the Polynesian Mission has disappeared from New Zealand, and there is no chance of children coming to this colony in the way that was intended. The Wesleyan Mission has disappeared and gone to Sydney, and the grant of land they possess has been let. There is a boardin<.;house upon it, and the receipts, I believe, go to a very different purpose from what was intended. In the same way this is no longer the centre of the Eeman Catholic Mission. So that the Committee will see that the whole scheme for which these grants were established has broken down. That runs through all similar endowments, because the hospital site at Auckland was granted on the same terms ; and I believe it will be found that the hospital site at Wanganui was also granted on the same terms, and that people of all races have a right to go there. The whole scheme has been abolished, and the provinces have been swept away. Some of the islands had agreed to be federated. I had the cession of the Fiji