1.-6

58

through the papers, which I hope they will do, they will see that when the papers were laid on the table of the House, I endeavoured to put Mr. Phillips's position in as favourable a light as possible. Now, I come to the question which Mr. Phillips has laid such stress on, why this paper was not published. I do not remember exactly what transpired, but my recollection is very strong upon the subject. Both Sir James Fergusson and myself had made rather much of Mr. Phillips. Sir James Fergusson had mentioned his name in a despatch home and in published memoranda. The fact was, his idea suggested itself in its broad sense—that of a trading company with the South Sea Islands. We had not, I think, studied the details very much. When I prepared the papers for Parliament and looked through Mr. Phillips's statement, it then struck me that he proposed a company for trafficing in human labour. It was certainly disguised that the chief profit was to arise from that (although I do not think he designed that), and it was in his own interest that I did not publish the paper. He has now published it, and the public will be able to form their own judgment. As between Mr. Phillips's scheme and mine—mine was that a company should be formed, under the guarantee of New Zealand, to carry out a trade in connection with New Zealand not only for purposes of profit, but in the interests of civilization; and that this should be done failing any attempt on the part of the Imperial Government to carry out settlement in the South Seas. Tou will allow mc to say that as it gradually forced itself on my mind that the English Government were prepared to go very much further in the direction of extending civilization in the South Seas than was anticipated, the necessity for interference on the part of New Zealand seemed to me to become less, and I therefore ceased to take any further steps in the matter after I saw the way in which the English Government were working. The expenditure which is now going on in the Pacific must be very heavy. Of course the assumption of the control of Fiji has been a great step on the part of the English Government. I will read to the Committee the references made to Mr. Phillips in the papers laid before the Assembly, and I think you will consider I was rather liberal in noticing him than otherwise: — " Mr. Coleman Phillips, who had aided in arranging for the establishment of a Bank in Fiji, addressed to me a communication in which he suggested the establishment of a company, which, like the East India Company, should endeavour, politically and commercially, to gain ascendency in the Pacific Islands. I was much struck with the idea; but when Mr. Phillips asked me if I would advise him to go Home to endeavour to float the company, I felt that he would have great difficulty in raising the capital. It then occurred to me, from the New Zealand point of view, from which I felt bound to look at it, that Mr. Phillips's project, supposing it matured, might or might not be worked in a manner calculated to be of much benefit to New Zealand." "Tour Excellency is aware that I have felt much interest in a proposal made by Mr. Phillips, that a trading company should be formed in England, with the view of absorbing, by its commercial power, a large share of political control in the Islands. The objects proposed by Mr. Phillips, excepting that of a chartered labour traffic, I approved ; and your Excellency, I believe, communicated the substance of Mr. Phillips's ideas to the Secretary of State. I have since thought very carefully over the matter ; and there are two points in respect to Mr. Phillips's proposal which seem to me to require serious consideration, and without providing for which I am not certain the proposed company might not lend itself to retard, instead of to advance, the civilization of the Islands. Those points are —(1.) That, in order to obtain the necessary capital, every consideration besides that of the mere acquirement of profit might have to be abandoned. (2.) That Mr. Phillips's proposal does not provide that amount of direct and governmental control which, in my opinion, should be stipulated for in the interest of the helpless natives." "I consider that Mr. Phillips's share in the transaction entitles him to substantial compensation." These were contained in memoranda to His Excellency, which were sent home to England. In the same papers there is a despatch from Sir James Fergusson, which contains the following:— "This scheme was at first devised by a private individual, who contemplated an attempt to form a company in England and Germany. He communicated it to the Premier, the Hon. Mr. Vogel, C.M.G., who deemed it to be one which New Zealand should not only encourage, but adopt and control, in consideration of the advantages which would accrue to her through a reciprocal trade with the Islands, and possibly by becoming, at a future time, the centre of their government." So that you will see I did not at all deny Mr. Phillips any share in originating the scheme ; and to show you how very peculiar the complaint he makes now is, I will read one of his letters, dated July 25th, 1874, after these papers were published, and apparently after they had reached his hands: — " Dear Sir,— " Auckland, 25th July, 1874. " Allow me to thank you for the manner in -which you alluded to me in proposing the Polynesian scheme. " I have always felt quite certain that you will treat me fairly. Tour speech on Monday confirms this. I shall leave New Zealand fully satisfied as to your intentions, yet regretting your wrong impression concerning me. " Again thanking you most sincerely, " Believe me to be, &c, " Hon. Julius Vogel." " Coleman Phillips. There is another letter which Mr. Phillips has published. Mr. Phillips: Excuse me for remarking that I have not published any letter. Sir Julius Vogel: Then, in September, Mr. Phillips wrote to me, stating his intention to go to England, and that he intended to persuade England to take steps in Polynesian matters. Ido not think it necessary to refer to any of his letters until this one, which I received lately, when the idea of getting compensation occurred to him. I wish the Committee to understand distinctly that it was only when I received this letter, on May 17, that I had the slightest notion Mr. Phillips did not consider he had been treated with exceeding kindness by me. 17. The Chairman.] What year was that ?—May 17, 1876. I wish to explicitly deny the statement Mr. Phillips made, that I prevented his going to England. He also, in the statement he has