41

I.—l

Pollen, then General Government Agent, to the Minister for Public "Works (Mr. Ormond), on the subject.] The correspondence clearly proves that these timber leases over the land were made with the full concurrence and sanction of the provincial authorities, who alone had the power, under the Immigration and Public "Works Act, to recommend these purchases, and I myself was found fault with for not supplying funds to get the purchases made. A large company with funds at their disposal, •cutting down timber, with saw-mills, could not do so without having the sanction of the Natives. 883. The Chairman.~\ Did Mr. Preece in his letter in any other way inform you that he was to be made principal owner of the 30,000 acres in the Tairua block ?—No. 884. Then the whole of this negotiation went on on the recommendation of the very man who was to get the advantage of it ? What I mean is this: Mr. Preece, in conjunction with Mr. Graham, was to get from Mr. Mackay the timber on the block of 36,000 acres for 99 years. Now he is the writer of a letter to the Government, hurrying it on, and on the recommendation of that person the whole thing takes place. —I, personally, have had no communication with Mr. Preece. nor do I know the whole circumstances, as far as the transaction is concerned. All I take is the broad ground that we never moved in these purchases without reference to the Superintendent. The Superintendent knew perfectly well that the timber was disposed of to these companies. 885. The complaint is that these claims have never been examined? —They have all been through the Native Land Court. 886. The General Government took Mr. Russell's timber claims out of the hands of the Provincial Government ?—No ; these Natives had a legal right to dispose of their rights to the timber ; so j'ou could not take it away and give it to the Government. 887. Then why was it not done in other cases besides Mr. Russell's; is his exempted out of the whole block?— There are several companies there with saw-mills. 888. Yes, but nobody but Mr. Russell is exempted ?—The miners have an absolute right to cut the timber, and they can go and cut it at any time. I have myself heard these people express their ■willingness to encourage miners to go and cut timber. 889. The miners have told me they have been interrupted?— All these agreements are subject to the Act of the General Assembly of 1869—the Validation Act.

Hon. Sir D. McLean.

30th Sept., 1875,

Fbidat, Bth Octobeb, 1875. Mr. James Mackat further examined on oath. S9O. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] I wish you to make a statement to the Committee in reference to tow Mr. Preece became possessed of his interest in the Tairua block. Perhaps you will state what you know of it from the commencement ? —The first acquaintance that I had with the Tairua block was in 1865, when the Natives were quarrelling with Mr. Seccombe about some timber at Puketuhe This ended in a dispute which I had to settle as Civil Commissioner. 891. Had Seccombe any interest in it then? —The interest was first sold to him in 1864 by Dr. Shortland's authority, and the money was paid and the agreement signed. After I left the Government service, I was Seccombe's agent, and I endeavoured to get a title for it through the Native Land Court. The survey of the block was made with the object of securing Seccombe's title. Seccombe asked me on several occasions to sell it for him. He had spent £22,000 or £26,000 on the mill, but it had always been a bad paying thing, and he wanted to get rid of it. Therefore I suggested that he should get a title through the Native Land Court. I was once authorized to oft'er it to Brodgen and Sons, which I did here in Wellington. Mr. Graham made the survey, and after the survey was completed it was arranged to put the land through the Native Land Court. I had more work than I could do in land purchasing, and I made an arrangement with Preece and Graham, who were then land agents in Auckland, to assist me in purchasing land in Mercury Bay and in Tairua and I gave them half the commission that I received from the Government for it. At the time these blocks of land were going through the Court, and before Preece had any idea of taking the timber, he •was going up to Auckland. I was busy with the Natives in the Court, and I asked him to go and see Dr. Pollen as to whether these lands were to be purchased or not. Dr. Pollen said, " You had better make a list of these blocks, and I will see whether they are to be purchased." A list was made and submitted to Mr. Gillies, the then Superintendent of Auckland, who sanctioned the purchase : and, seeing that what I considered Mr. Seccombe's just rights were confirmed to him by a lease, I considered that I was doing what was right, and acting in accordance with the instructions I had received from Mr. Ormonu, that those rights were to be respected. If not, Seccombe would have had the right of cutting timber under the agreement for ever and ever. I have put a copy of that agreement in. The lease was made in the name of Seccombe and Son, and Preeco and Graham bought it from Seccombe, and afterwards took in Mr. Howard and some other person. In the first instance the agreement was made between Preece, Graham, and Seccombe and Sou. Preece bought it from Seccombe and Son. There was no deed between Preece and the Natives to my knowledge. 892. About what time was that purchase by Preece from Seccombe and Son made ?—Just after the sale to the Crown. 893. And Seccombe had a perpetual right to cut timber on the land under the agreement ?—-Yes ; I believe (as near as I can recollect) that the agreement says he is to continue cutting the timber until it is all removed. 894. About what time did the land pass though the Native Land Court? —I think it was some time in 1872 ; perhaps June or July, 1872, but I may be wrong. 895. Had you any interest with Preece in this block ? —None whatever. I was asked if I would go into it with Mr. George McLeod, but I would not do so. I think McLeod was mixed up in the transaction. I did not care to do it, because I had engaged with Preece to give him half the commission. I gave him £400 or £450, which I afterwards got back. 896. The Chairman. —Preece gave you £450?—N0, I lent it to him, and he afterwards returned it. 6—l. 1.

Mr. J. Mackay.

Bth Oct., 1875,