I.—l

34

Mr. W. H. Grace.

charge 3s. 6d. a yard for it on an order. He said, " I cannot supply the goods unless at that price. If cash were paid I could sell it at 2s. 6d. ; but as it is an order from Mr. Mackay, you must pay 3s. 6d." In several instances storemen have offered me commission if I would take to them all the orders I could get. 716. Are these orders made upon any particular storemen ? —All orders for flour or sugar, or articles of that kind, were made upon Mr. Adlam ; while Goldwater, Williams, or Wilson (threedrapers), always received the orders for drapery goods. 717. Could you have taken orders to any other ?—No ; the order was made out upon the particular storekeeper. 718. Who made these orders out?—O'Halloran used always to make them out. I know that a private individual at that particular time was dealing with Natives, and he said they might have flour and sugar. They got it at £16 a ton, while Adlam was charging the Natives for flour —not first-class flour—£2o a ton on these orders. 719. Are these orders given for goods, or are they for any particular amount of money on the face of them ?—These orders state that so and so wants so many yards of cloth, or so many blankets and shawls. No price was put down. The Native took that order; of course, he never saw the bill. 720. Were these orders given in payment for land ?—Yes ; the Natives were not paid in money but by these orders. I have known Natives say " Give me money," and to be told that the Government had not sent any money, and that they could not have any. 721. Mr. Rolleston.] Do not the orders purport to be for articles to such an extent ?—No; 1 never saw an order made in that way. I have made out a list of orders. I used to assist O'Halloran, as he did not speak Maori. The Maoris were asked what they wanted, and they would say so many shawls, and that would be put down, and so on, in the order. The Native never knew how much money he was going to get. 722. The Chairman.'] Do I understand that the order said goods of a certain quantity ? —Yes. 723. And that then the shopkeeper supplied the goods? —Yes, and the bill was sent in to Mr. Mackay. 724. Then the Native found he had received so much money? —When it came to a settlement, it was found that this particular tribe owed so much money, and the question came, what land it was to be charged to. When these orders were given the land was probably not surveyed, and it was impossible to tell how much each was entitled to. 725. Mr. Rolleston.~\ Can you say whether Mr. Mackay or Mr. O'Halloran got any commission?— I cannot tell whether they got any commission. I would not like to say so. I have been offered commission myself. 726. The Chairman.'] How much did they offer you ? —They said if I would bring the orders they would give me some commission. I declined to enter into any arrangement. 727. When you went with these orders, were you able to bargain for the Natives to get the goods cheaper ?—I only went in one instance with a Native named Meremaua. 728. Do the Natives generally take the orders themselves? —Yes. 729. And they did not know what they paid for the goods ?—No, unless they asked the storeman. I have been on two or three occasions with some of the old Ohinemuri men, who previous to that time did not come to Shortland. On one occasion we went into Goldwater's with an order. They received a lot of goods —shawls and things of that sort —and I do not recollect their asking what the price was. 730. I understand from your evidence that, the Government at least have a great power of patronage in selecting the people on whom these orders are given ? —Yes, the Natives knew that they could not give a good title to a private individual, but by coming to the Government they would receive some money at any rate. When they came to settle up, all the money was mixed up in a total and charged to land. « 731. There are a great many storekeepers and shopkeepers in Grahamstown and Shortland, and by the Government selecting two or three to whom these orders were made, they had a power of exercising a great influence in the place over certain persons ? —There is no doubt that certain storekeepers got all the orders ; the others had no chance of supplying goods to these Natives. The Natives could not go to any shop they liked; they had to go where the orders were directed to. 732. The orders were made to particular storekeepers ? —Yes. If the goods were flour or sugar, the orders went to Adlam; the drapery orders were divided, as equally as we could, either to Goldwater, or Williams, or Wilson. I am speaking of the time when I had something to do with it, in July or August twelve months. 733. Mr. O'Neill.] What time was Block XXVII. leased?—l think in January 1869. It was passed through the Court in May 1868. Mr. Mackay leased it from the Natives, and afterwards, just before he went through the Bankruptcy Court, it was transferred to Oliver Mason Creagh. 734. What was the date of the Hikutaia affair ?—I forget exactly the date when Hikutaia was opened as a gold field, 735. Where is Gibbons's mill situated? —-He has a saw-mill of his own, and has also leased a mill from the Hauraki Saw-mill Company, both on the Thames Eiver.

21st Sept., 1875,

Thursday, 23rd September. Sir D. McLean re-examined on oath. 736. The Chairman.] AYe wish to ask you a question about Colonel McDonnell getting land. Mr. Stannus Jones says that he came to AVellington and saw you about a piece of land called Otawa, and wrote you a letter about it ?—He did. 737. And that you told him it was all right ? —I do not recollect telling him that. [Chairman read Mr. S. Jones's letter.] Ido not remember giving him any sanction. I was strict in preventing Europeans from getting land where the Government were purchasing, unless they had made

Hon. Sir D. McLean.

23rd Sept., 1875