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remember signing that order (No. 1G produced) ? Yes. "Was not the difference made up out of Tautitaha and Mahanga rents, and the balance of Heretaunga ? lam aware it was so done. How much rent was paid out of Tautitaha to prove the £781 ? £60. Mr. Tanner.] Do you remember drawing an order on me for £5, in favour of Mr. Tuke (January 8, 1870) ? Yes ; I know of that. Mr. Coleman, £25 (January 8, 1870) ? Yes. Eeardon, £55 11s. (February 2, 1870) ? I know of having signed that. Do you remember my paying Boyle £110 for horses ? Yes. Robinson, £93 ss. ? Ido not quite know of that. Do you not know you had a large account at Robinson's ? I was in the habit of going, but not taking goods to the amount of £30 or £40 at the time. There was one time I took largely. Ido not quite know of going with you after Heretaunga was sold. I asked you for account, and you said, You are always asking for accounts and money. Did I not ask Mr. Robinson to give a paper with the account ? No ; you said, Let Henare have credit, and put it to my account. Did I not pay your accounts ? Yes ; I complain of not having received the accounts. Do you remember Newton's account, £194 13s. sd. ? I have the same complaint against that. Did I not always, or when putting down goods in my memorandum book, give you the amount for that day ? No. Did you not drag me into these shops against my will to give you credit ? When I asked you for money, you said " Get goods." Did I not constantly curtail your demands ? lam not aware of your doing so. Did I not tell you you were drawing too largely for me to meet ? No ; you continually said if we wanted anything to come to you for money or credit. Mr. Sheehan.] Is the Karamu larger or smaller than when you made it for yourselves? It is not not as large as it was. Is the difference considerable ? The first was considerably larger. Have any of your people or yourself been a party to the reduction of the extent ? No. Has it been made with your knowledge ? I became aware at the time of the survey when it was divided off in 100-acre pieces. We all knew then it was not equal to the acres of the first. Do you know anything of Mr. Tanner and Mr. Williams volunteering to increase the reserve? I know of the increasing it, and making it smaller ; they never made such a proposal. Do you recollect Tanner making such an offer ? No ; yesterday Tanner said so, but those two did not say so. What month did you go to Taupo ? In August, and returned in November. Do you recollect the acreage of the Kakiraawa Block ? I have only a small knowledge ; there are eight grantees. What was the extent of your interest ? I had a large interest myself, Faramena, and Hoani; Hoani was the chief. In Mangaterctere ? There were eight grantees. I was the principal person; the land was mine. Both the Mangatereteres belonged to my ancestors. We were always in possession of that land. Do you recollect the acreage of Kaokaoroa ? 4,000 acres ;it is still under mortgage to Sutton. What was the acreage of the Tautiaha Block ? 3,000 acres ; my interest was greater than the others. We came back from Taupo in November, and on December 6th we signed the agreement for the sale of Heretaunga. Did you make inquiries as to the sale of these blocks, before you signed the agreement ? Yes. Did you not, at the request of the Government, take a number of your people up with you ? Yes. Was not some part of your debt incurred for the supply of those people ? A greater portion of my debts was incurred on going to Taupo; I gave authority to the storekeepers, and the debts of the others were placed to my name. On your return from Taupo, had you not a large claim against the Government? Yes ; I have received some money due to me. The amount you still claim is larger than the sum you have received? Yes. After Heretaunga was sold, you embodied this claim in a complaint to the Assembly? Yes; it was the money for the fighting I asked for —soldiers'pay. The Assembly reported unfavourably on the claim ? Yes. Had you not a claim on the Government before Heretaunga was sold, on your return from Taupo ? Yes ; my claim was still undecided. Before you agreed to sell Heretaunga, did you give any person an order for money on Heretaunga ? No. All the orders wore given after the signing the agreement ? Yes. Was Mr. E. Hamlin the interpreter who had most to do with the transaction up to the sale ? Yes, and also with the lease. Were you aware he was a Government officer during the time he was doing the work ? Yes. Was he employed or paid by the Maoris ? No. Can you recollect when you first heard Karaitiana was receiving his annuity ? At the time of the final settlement and after. Do you know any sums of money you have received other than the accounts that have been shown here ? These amounts have been paid out of the money of Heretaunga. My debts were not all satisfied. I then mortgaged some other pieces of land, in order to pay these debts, but not to Tanner. Chairman.'] Are there any other bills you remember that Tanner has paid for you? No. Did Mr. Tanner advise you to get a solicitor or a friend ? Yes. Had he ever advised you before ? No. This was after the money had gone ? Yes. Mr. Lascelles.] You went to Taupo in August ? Yes. When did you begin to purchase goods for the Natives ? When they went to Tauranga ; it was not alone for Taupo the debts were contracted. Were you not paid in full for the Tauranga expedition ? Yes. What portion of the Taupo debts were paid out of Heretaunga ? Button's account of £1,000. Did not your debt commence eighteen months before your expedition to Taupo ? I do not know of that; if I had been in debt twelve months I should have been summoned. Were you not summoned before you went to Taupo ? Yes. How could the debt be incurred for that ? It was for Wairoa and Tauranga. The debts were incurred before leaving for Taupo, and just as we were leaving some of the people got things, and Sutton summoned me. What was the value of the goods that were got there ? All I know is there were 100 men got things. Will you swear they got £20 worth? Ido not know. Was Peacock and Co.'s incurred for Taupo, or Lindsay's, Maney's, or Knowles' ? No ; I did not say so. Knowles' was for Taupo. How long before the Taupo expedition was Knowles' debt incurred ? Some of those debts were incurred just before leaving. You state the Government owe you money ? Yes. Did they not give tho men daily pay ? No; the money was merely handed over to us. Prom the time you came back from Taupo till last year, you did nothing about this money ? When did you petition Parliament for the money due to you ? Last year, 1872. I did make a petition after I came back from Taupo, and before the one I sent to the Parliament. Whom did you speak to ? I asked Mr. Ormond ;he was the only person I asked. Manaena Tlni sworn. Mr. Sheehan.] What was the first occasion you heard anything of the sale of Heretaunga? At

Heretaunga.

Complaint No. 1 — continued.