MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN

Sir William Martin,

was that there was a strong division between the King and Queen party, which ceased when Mr. Fenton was withdrawn. But whether the King party may not have- been quietly gathering strength after that I cannot say. What Tamati said was thatthe words "King" and "Queen" were in everyone's mouth; every man said, "I am a King's man," or "I am a Queen's man:" whereas after Mr. Fenton's withdrawal that division ceased, and those expressions were not so often heard. 1 may add that from the Governor's despatch of July, 1859, I had inferred that no material increase of the King party followed. The Governor dates the revival of the King movement from July, 1859. 1228. Under the existing circumstances of the country, do you think it would be desirable or practicable to attempt the introduction of a judicious system, under the direction of Government, for establishing law among the Natives?—l should think it hopeless at the present time to effect anything; you must build upon confidence: and, at this time, confidence in the Native mind towards Government is very small. 1229. Do you apply that remark to the disturbed districts only, or generally to the North Island? —Generally. What I mean is not that the recent proceedings of the Government have created that want of confidence for the first time, but that there is always a latent distrust of the intentions of the Pakeha, which those proceedings rekindled and for a time increased enormously. 1230. Chairman.] Do you think that the re-establishment of peaceful relations between the two races is essential for restoring confidence and establishing law among them ?—Yes, certainly. I should say with regard to the term "distrust," that I do not think there exists much of any feeling which deserves the name of disaffection or disloyalty to the Queen. The feeling of distrust to which I alluded is almost entirely directed against particular persons and particular grievances, the system of land purchase generally. They complain amongst other things, of the want of publicity in that system. I have heard this complaint for years past. 1231. Mr. Heale.] I understood you to say that you approved generally of Mr. Fenton's plan, but entertained doubts as to the prudence of some of the steps taken by him in carrying it out : do you wish the Committee to understand that there were any such objections to his mode of proieeding as would have rendered it advisable to put an end to the attempt to introduce his system ?—I do notsee on the face of the report and journals any such grave objection to his proceedings, as would have made that course necessary : but I am wholly unacquainted with the state of the facts at that particular time. 1232. Mr. Domett] Supposing peace to be immediately established, do you think that the lowopinion at present entertained of British military prowess by the Natives is consistent with the successful introduction and maintenance in authoritative action of institutions for the civil government of the Natives ?—Ever since the war in the North, I believe the Natives have entertained only one opinion of our soldiers. They think our soldiers are irresistible on good ground, but that they themselves will always have the better of it on bad ground ; and they know that the greater part of the Island is bad ground. The inference I draw is this : If that opinion has remained the same, and if it did not prevent the success of Mr. Fenton's operations in the Waikato, neither do I see why it should prevent now the success of similar operations, assuming of course that peace were first re-established and confidence restored. Our hold on the Natives has not been owing to the prestige of military superiority. If they see that our system confers on them substantial benefits, they will be attached to it: that is the only ground. 1233. So that such disrespect of our military prowess is in your opinion consistent with the possibility of affording the protection of our law even to Europeans when injured by Natives, where the latter predominate ?— I am not aware that I have spoken of any "disrespect"; I have spoken of a certain estimate; I express no opinion as to whether that estimate be true. But I conceive that the foundation upon which civil and judicial institutions are to be built up, is something altogether different. 1234. Then you think that a conviction on the part of the Natives of our physical superiority as at the basis of our Government, is not necessary to the successful establishment of that Government over them ?—I do not deny the utility of such a conviction, but I say it is not the main thing to depend upon. In proportion as our system is seen to benefit the Natives and advance their prosperity, in that proportion will be theii attachment to it. 1235. Mr. Forsaith.] Do you suppose that any attempt to build up civil institutions throughout the Islands would, under present circumstances, fail, and that the attempt ought to be postponed till a signal victory has been obtained at Taranaki?—l think the attempt should be postponed till peace is established, and so established as to create confidence. As to a " signal victory," everything depends upon the use which might be made of it. A slight success was made efficient by Sir George Grey for the restoration of confidence, by making a wise and generous use of it. 1236. Mr. Bell.] But how would you proceed to plant institutions in the first instance?—By means of personal influence. The first confidence must be a confidence in persons. There are three stages or periods in the course of the work. First, there is a movement in the Native mind; a ssnse of need, without the knowledge or means requisite for supplying that which is needed. Then comes personal influence and guidance, giving a right direction to the movement, and gradually shaping out some institution fitted to the circumstances. In the third stage the institution is in operation, satisfying the need and thereby producing confidence and attachment towards itself and towards the whole system, the whole Government, of which it is part. The true use and object of personal influence is to establish something better than itself and more permanent.

20 Oct. 1860.

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