MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN

344. Did you ever hear Potatau or any other Waikato Chief express objections to Mr. Fenton's proceedings ?—I never did. 345. Had there been such objections, is it likely you would have heard them ?—Had they been objected to I should have heard of it. 846. Was there no division of feeling amongst the Natives of Waikato as to Mr. Fenton's proceed? ings ? —I am not aware that there was any division .- their thoughts were that this man (Sir. Fenton), resembled Governor Grey in his regard for the Maories of this Island. 347. Did you attend any of the runangas at Waikato ? —All the Chiefs of the runangas came to me to talk. If Governor Grey had been Governor of this Island, the plans of the Maories would not have gone in a contrary direction. 348. Are you acquainted generally with the feelings and opinions of the Maori people ?—lam acquainted with them. 349. Have you considered what the matters are of which they principally complain, or what they principally desire ?—I know why the thoughts of the Maori Chiefs have turned away from the system of the Pakeha ; the mana of this island is trampled upon by the Pakeha system ; the Pakeha system is taught to thei.tribes ; the Maories therefore consider that it is taking the mana and enslaving this island. This is the principal cause of the present darkness of the Maories, they are not admitted to share in the Government administration of justice. The Pakehas say that their regulations alone should be law for both races ; the Maori Chiefs say that the two should be joined, so that the bodies of the Pakeha and Maori may be joined (or united), and also the thoughts of their hearts. If the bodies only of the Pakehji and Maori are joined, but there is no joining of systems, what is the good of there being' one mana, one law, one system of administering justice, and one King? These are the things which have caused the hearts of the Maori Chiefs of this island to turn in a contrary direction. 350. Is it the desire of the Natives that there should be a joint mana under one Queen for both races, or one mana under their own King for the Maories, and another under the Queen for the Pakehas ? —The Maories have said that let there be one law for the two races ; had the administration of justice by the Government been clear, the mana would have been one, but when the Pakeha system went contrary to the Maori, the Maori Chiefs proposed to elect a Chief for themselves, but still to have the one law, that of Heaven and the Queen. 351. You have said, that if the administration of law had been clearly understood by the natives, they and the Pakehas would have remained one ; now, do you think it could be made clear so as to produce the effect of uniting the two races ?—lt could not be done now. The Maori Chiefs know that their letters had no weight, the letters they wrote to the Queen requesting that Governor Grey might be sent back as Governor for the Island ; his Maori policy was clear: a union probably could not now be effected, for many Chiefs have joined the Waikato runangas, 352. Would not the sending of European Magistrates to administer the law with native Magistrates and runangas, gradually make-the law clear to the Natives, and thereby reunite the two races ?—That would be good for them ; the Pakeha and Maori systems would be united together, and would be the law in the judicial investigations by which evil would be suppressed. 353. Would it be likely that one part of the Natives would oppose and another part of the Natives approve of the introduction of these Magistrates? —Such would not be the ease; were the Pakeha system the only one carried out amongst the Maori people, the Maories would turn from it ; but when the two were united the Magistrate would have influence with the Maori people. 354. Would not the old Maori Chiefs be grieved to see the 'mana' pass out of their hands into those of the Magistrate and the younger Chiefs, his assistants?— They would not be grieved, because there would be two manas united in that mode of administering justice. 355. Supposing an European Magistrate to be sent into a Native district to administer justice in conjunction with Maori assistants, how would you propose to select those assistants ?—The Governor and the tribe should appoint those assistants, the tribes should select them, a paper containing their consent should be forwarded, and the appointment approved by the Governor. Another thing ; the Governor should ask the Maories what Pakeha they would prefer as Magistrate. 356. How should Maori runangas be constituted ?—Eruera Kahawai and I urged Governor Browne to form a runanga for (of ) the chiefs of this island, to carefully select intelligent chiefs from the tribes of the East Coast and the interior of this island to lay down rules, so that the hearts of the Maories might turn to the runanga of the Government of New Zealand, but the Governor did not consent to it. 357. You are now alluding to a General Council; but we wish to know how you would recommend the Village Councils to be constituted ?—They should be selected by the tribe. 358. What should be the work of these runangas ?—To join the Pakeha with the Maori systems, for dealing with matters relating to the personal property, land, and all other things that cause confusion in the place. 359. Would they be competent to deal with land disputes ?-—They should act in council with their Pakeha friend, the influential Chief, and persons skilled in genealogical descents, and land boundaries. If the runanga could clearly decide the matter, it would end there. If the dispute continues, sosie influential chiefs should be called in, and they should name some Tohunga, who knows the ancestors to whom the land belonged and who appointed it to his different heirs, or reserved it for his single descendants ; there should end the dispute, 300. How in case of disputes between tribes ?—lf it were known that there were a dispute about land, or women, or property, and that evil was likely to result, the disputants should be called upon to appear before the runanga, and the runanga should carefully settle their disputes.

Wiremu Maehe, 6 Oct. 1860.

24