WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE: REPORT ON THE PETITION OF WALTER GIBSON AND 300 OTHERS, TOGETHER WITH COPY OF EVIDENCE TAKEN THEREON.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1898 Session I, I-05c

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1898. NEW ZEALAND.

WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE: REPORT ON THE PETITION OF WALTER GIBSON AND 300 OTHERS, TOGETHER WITH COPY OF EVIDENCE TAKEN THEREON.

Brought up on 20th October, 1898, and ordered to be printed. Eepokt on the Petition of Waltbe Gibson and Others, Kaikoura.—No. 260. Petitionbes pray that an investigation may be held into the administration of the Crown lands in the County of Kaikoura. I am directed to report that the Committee—having carefully inquired into the allegations contained in this petition, and taken the evidence of Mr. Gibson ; Mr. James McKerrow, Chairman of the Land Purchase Board ; Mr. McMillan, Land Valuer ; Mr. Meredith, M.H.E.; and Mr. C. W. Adams, Commissioner of Crown Lands for Marlborough—is of opinion that there is no foundation for the allegations contained in this petition. The Committee also desires to place on record its regret that so many settlers should have been induced to sign such a petition without having first satisfied themselves as to the truth of the charges so recklessly made therein against the administration of the Lands Department in that district. E. Thompson, Chairman. 20th October, 1898.

PETITION.

To the Honourable the House of Representatives of the Colony of New Zealand in Parliament assembled. The petition of residents and electors of the Electoral District of Ashley humbly showeth, — 1. That, in the matter of land-administration in the County of Kaikoura, certain things have been done which, in the opinion of your humble petitioners, are inimical to the interests and welfare of the colony, and demand investigation with the view of preventing recurrence of anything of a similar nature in connection with Crown lands in New Zealand ; and your humble petitioners respectfully pray that a Eoyal Commission be appointed for that purpose. 2. The general grounds on which your humble petitioners respectfully prefer their request are as follows :— 3. That the proprietors of Green Hills for 3,070 acres of rugged pastoral country were given in exchange over 9,000 acres of better pastoral country of greater value than the land surrendered by them. They also were given the right to buy a block of over 4,000 acres of pastoral country, known as the Hawk Hills, at 10s. per acre; and, further, the privilege of leasing the Stag-spey IL'ock, of some 17,000 acres, for a period of three years : all these concessions forming part of the conditions of exchange obtained by them. By some alleged manipulation the boundaries of Small Grazing-run No. 90 were so altered as to throw into the property of the proprietors of Green Hills a piece of valuable land that was until recently Crown land, and land essential to the better and more profitable occupation of the aforesaid Small Grazing-run No. 90, entailing loss to the State for all time. That 9,000 acres of Crown lands on the Ferniehurst Eun were sold in such a way that the country fell into the hands of an estate virtually belonging to a wealthy absentee, instead of which the country should have been cut up into small grazing-runs. 4. That the Clarence Buns country, of about 125,000 acres of Crown lands, are being occupied by the Assets Eealisation Board in a manner unprofitable to the State, instead of the country being cut up into grazing-runs. 5. That after the Minister of Lands had promised a deputation representing Kaikoura settlers that notice would be given to the lessees of resumption of the Puhipuhi Block for settlement the Under-Secretary for Lands telegraphed that the Government did not intend to give the promised I—l. 50.

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notice; and when a second deputation was, in consequence, sent to interview the Minister, that deputation, after some delay and difficulty, obtained a written promise from the Minister that immediate notice would be given to the Crown tenants of the Puhipuhi. 6. That great delay has taken place in surveying the Crown lands in the County of Kaikoura, the area put into the market for three years' work being under 40,000 acres. As there are still over 260,000 acres of Crown lands in and around Kaikoura yet to be brought in for settlement, the survey of such land will be abnormally slow and exceedingly injurious to the welfare of the colony. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that your honourable House will be pleased to cause full and complete investigation to be made into the matters complained of and referred to by your humble petitioners. And your petitioners will ever pray, &c. Walter Gibson and 299 others.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Monday, 3bd Ootobek, 1898. —(Mr. E. Thompson, Chairman.) Mr. Waltbe Gibson examined. The Chairman :■ Mr. Gibson, you have heard the petition read, and the report thereon by the department. The Committee will now hear your evidence. Witness : I wish to make an explanation. The member for Ashley, in the Lyttelton Times, said that I and others have accused him and Mr. McMillan of corruption. Permit me to say we have done no such thing. The Chairman : We have nothing to do with statements that have appeared in the newspapers. Witness : I have been engaged' in pastoral pursuits for forty-two years in Nelson, Canterbury, and Marlborough, and for thirty-eight years a sheep-farmer on my own account. At the urgent request of the late Premier (the Hon. John Ballance) and the member for Ashley I accepted a seat on the Cheviot Board of Eeview, and from my intimate knowledge of the Cheviot Estate I was elected Chairman of that Board, which upheld the assessment, and thereby enabled the Government of the late Hon. John Ballance to acquire the Cheviot Estate for settlement. One of the matters we object to is that the Crown sold the Ferniehirst Estate, consisting of 9,000 acres, at 10s. an acre, very much below its value. I know the country well, as I held a lease of it in 1860. The Government made a road to it since the sale, which adds greatly to its value. At present it carries only five thousand sheep, but if properly worked and improved it would carry twelve or thirteeen thousand sheep. This sale was not in the interest of close settlement, as it was purchased by the Eobert Tinline trustees for the benefit of Mrs. Murray, a rich Australian absentee. This block of Crown lands should have been cut up into two or three small grazing-runs. This was in 1897. There was a public road made by the Government along the eastern boundary since then, which gave additional value to the property. The Minister should have exercised the power he had under the Land for Settlements Act to obtain frontages for this property. I come now to Mr. Bullen's land. Mr. Bullen gave the Crown a portion of the Kahutara Block of 3,070 acres freehold land, consisting of poor, hard, clayey soil, river-bed flats, and hills, for 9,210 acres on Greenbills Eun. Bullen's land was poor quality; I know the country intimately. Bullen got 480 acres at Greenhills Station as part of the area he got in exchange. That I consider to be worth £3 an acre. Mr. Bullen had offered the Government of the then Major Atkinson to purchase this property, but they refused to assess it at the price he would purchase at. This land was the key to a large area of Crown land of about 23,000 acres. The Dog Hills Eun, which made up the balance of the area exchanged with Mr. Bullen by the Government, consisted of 8,730 acres, which was worth 15s. an acre at the lowest estimate. The Hawke Hill Eun, which is close by, was sold by auction lately at 15s. I beg leave to say that if that was put up in smaller blocks there would be better competition. Mr. Bullen's property of 3,070 acres he considered to be worth £4,000 —that is the land-tax value ; while I consider that the property he got in exchange from the Government was worth £7,987, which leaves an excess of value to him of £3,987. The Minister had the power under the Land for Settlements Act to take this 3,070 acres from Mr. Bullen, and it would have been more in the interest of settlement to do so than to have given him this large area of Crown land. Neither do I think that it was in the interest of settlement that Mr. Bullen should acquire the right under the land-exchange agreement to put up for sale by auction the Hawke Hills Block of 4,117 acres at 10s. per acre, which was sold on the 14th September last for £3,050, a small fraction under 15s. an acre. This was 50 per cent, more than the value placed on it by the Land Purchase Board. It was nonsense to say that this was not suitable for settlement. Mr. Bullen had also acquired the right under the exchange agreement to lease the Spay Block, consisting of 12,000 acres, for a period of three years. This was not in the interest of settlement. The Commissioners purchased 320 acres of the Puhipuhi Block from the members of the Marlborough Land Board for settlement purposes, and recommended that this freehold land purchased by the Government and 19,000 acres Crown land of the Puhipuhi Block should be leased for a period of five years, subject to a clause giving the Crown power to resume it after twelve months' notice had been given. The people consider that the land should have been cut up for immediate settlement, instead of which

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it is kept in the hands of land-monopolists. When they heard of this discreditable arrangement they formed themselves into an association for the purpose of seeing that the Crown lands were dealt with in the interests and welfare of the district and the colony. The Minister of Lands was interviewed by a deputation concerning the matter, and he gave an assurance that the country would be at once cut up for settlement. This was in October last. After six weeks' correspondence with the Lands Department they were informed by the Under-Secretary for Lands that the Government did not intend to give the tenants notice, as there would be enough land offered shortly to satisfy the requirements of the Kaikoura people ; but later on the Minister said that it would be given on the Ist December, 1897. Then, again, about 400 acres of the best land on the northern part of the Kahutara Crown land block, including about 50 acres rich swamp, was given to Mr. Bullen for about 434 acres freehold by the Government. This was on the summit of the hills. The land given by the Government was part of Small Grazing-run 90, and the exchange would entail about one-third more fencing of the boundary-line of the run, and would cause a loss of one-third of the income from the run. I wish now to refer to the Monkey-face Eeserve. Mr. Bullen, who owns over 40,000 acres freehold land, made a struggle to get the Monkey-face Eeserve of 878 acres. There is on this reserve a wonderful geological formation which is a very great curiosity. The Surveyor-General wrote to the Land Board in March last suggesting that Messrs. Bullen should get the reserve for three years under a pastoral license. The Board decided that there was no application before them from Messrs. Bullen. When our association saw this they sent a strongly-worded resolution to the Government against the proposal. At the meeting of the Board on 9th May Mr. McCallum (Messrs. Bullen's solicitor) applied on their behalf to have the reserve put up to auction under the pre-emptive right of the Marlborough Waste Lands Act, and, although the lease of Messrs. Bullen under that Act had expired on 28th February, 1897, the Board resolved that the application be granted. Our association again returned to the charge, and no notice was taken of the resolution sent to the Minister of Lands. The Board at its meeting in August last said it had no intention of selling the reserve, but at the meeting on the 12th September last it resolved that, as Messrs. Bullen hold the Monkeyface Eeserve under the Marlborough Waste Lands Act, they be allowed to purchase 253 acres of it without further delay. If Messrs. Bullen are allowed to purchase this land the Monkey-face Eeserve will be useless to any one else. The Chairman : Were they allowed to purchase it ? Witness : Ido not know. If this part of the reserve were sold, the remainder would be no good to anybody else. Now I come to the Clarence Bun of 125,000 acres of Crown land. It now carries about twenty-eight thousand sheep, but sixteen years ago it carried forty-fivs thousand. The Land Department are desirous of leasing this large area to the Assets Eealisation Board for twentyone years, doubtless with a view of the Board selling the run to some land-monopolist. The Land Board declines to lease for longer than seven years, as this fertile valley will be wanted for settlement. The Assets Board has 16,660 acres of splendid fertile land along the river, which would make the finest fruit-growing land in the world; there is nothing to equal it in Australia for this purpose. There would be no engineering difficulty in making a good road to it. It should not be leased for twenty-one years, as it will be required for settlement long before then. The JKaitoa Block is being cut up into holdings from 103 acres to 404. The blocks are too small to keep a family, and the result will be that two-thirds of the settlers will have to sell out at a loss of time and money to their neighbours. A man requires a square mile of land on that block to live in comfort. It is cruel putting settlers on such limited areas on land like that. The Commissioners who are appointed to buy these properties make mistakes as to value, as they get into the hands of people who give them misleading information. It has taken over four years to place twenty-two settlers on the Kaikoura surveys with an area of 35,000 acres, and as there are 260,000 acres of Crown lands in Kaikoura district that are being devastated by rabbits, at the present rate of progress it will take over thirty years before all the Crown lands are settled. Ido not blame the Commissioners for this state of things—it is the system that is bad. They should take advantage of local knowledge, and get the aid of the member for the district as to the quality of the land and the requirements of the settlers. 1. Mr. Duncan.} How long since you went to the Clarence district? —1 have a knowledge of Kaikoura for thirty-eight years. 2. How long is it since you entered there?— About sixteen or seventeen years. 3. How many sheep did it carry then ?—lt was carrying forty-five thousand. 4. Is that in the Upper Clarence?—lt is in the East Clarence, near Kaikoura, over the range. 5. Then, you mentioned about the Ferniehirst Eun : was part of that run sold ?—Yes; 9,000 acres were sold. The Tinline trustees purchased it. 6. How was that land situated—was it gridironed?—There was a narrow strip along it. The key to it was purchased. 7. You stated something about the fencing of the Hawke Hill property? —It was advertised without any weighting. It was sold for a fraction over 15s. per acre. 8. Then, it was advertised without any weight ?—At the last moment it was weighted with £270. 9. Have you formed yourselves into a settlement association?— Quite so. 10. Was it not your place to point this out, as a member of the association ? —lt was the duty of the surveyor to point it out. 11. Why did you not protest when the change was made in the weighting? —We had no time to send a resolution to Wellington. 12. Then it was sold the 14th of last month?— Yes ;it was sold to Mr. Bullen for 15s. an acre. 13. Was the Dog Hill Eun sold ?— It was exchanged. Mr. Bullen got it; he got it at the rate of three acres for one. 14. Did you write to the district member about this matter ?—A deputation told him about it in October, 1897, when they came up here.

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15. It had been in existence some time before you found it out. What wa,s the use of telling him then?—We wanted redress. - 16. How do you know about the carrying capacity of the Puhipuhi Block ?—I had it nine years. I came to it when leaving the Clarence. It carried nine thousand sheep. 17. How long did you hold it ?—Nine years. 18. Did you make a profit ?—No one on large, rough areas in New Zealand made a profit; the Labour Bill has killed every one. Most of the pioneer squatters have done no good. 19. When do you say the Marlborough leases expired ? —On the Ist March, 1897 ; and the exchange was made about three months before. 20. Had it only a month or two to run ? —Yes. 21. Then, you talk about the Monkey-face Eeserve : that was an application about the selling of it. They replied that they had no intention of selling it ?—The surveyor suggested that there should be a pastoral lease of three years. Our association objected to the sale. We communicated with the Minister. Mr. McCallum, on Messrs. Bullen's behalf, applied to the Land Board that it should be made freehold. 22. The Board, then, sold this recently ?—The Board resolved to sell it at the last meeting, according to the Express. 23. Mr. Flatman.] I notice that the witness had been originally requested to take a seat on the Board of Eeview ?—Yes ; it was done by Mr. Ballance. 24. You do not blame the Commissioners for anything ? —No; it is the fault of the system. 25. You think that Mr. Bullen got the best of the Commissioners?— Yes, certainly. If the members of the Board would go among the people they would get information, and could then judge for themselves. 26. You said the Hawke Hill property was weighted in favour of Mr. Bullen ? —Yes, undoubtedly. The report was made by the Chief Surveyer. It was advertised in the public Press without weighting, and at the last moment weighted in the Gazette. 27. Do you know at whose instigation it was weighted at the last moment?—No doubt, at Mr. Bullen's. 28. Mr. Bullen had no power unless the Land Board agreed ? —There is no doubt but that the Land Department yielded to him. 29. They would be at fault to have done that ?—No doubt. 30. If they did that they would do wrong?— Certainly; they did wrong. 31. If it was cut into small blocks, would many settlers go in for it? —Yes, if it was cut into small holdings—say, two. 32. What would it have fetched ?—£l an acre. 33. You would make more by it in two than one ?—The small man would improve it and make the land carry more stock. 34. Was there any pre-emptive right ?—lt had expired. 35. Then he had a pre-emptive right?—lt had expired. 36. As regards the Dog Hills, I understood the taxable value was £4,000 for 3,070 acres ? — That was Mr. Bullen's, and given to the Crown for the Dog Hills, about 480 acres at Green Hills Station. 37. Do you think the Estates Board's 16,600 acres fairly flat country? —A great deal of it is flat. There is no more valuable land in New Zealand. 38. Are there some fruits grown there now ?—Yes, at Quail Plat Station. The climate is suitable —hard frosts in winter, and the summer very warm. The land is excellent, and very suitable for fruits of all kinds. 39. Are the rabbits numerous there now ?—They poison a great many in the winter. 40. If these 16,000 acres were cut up for settlement, what size would be suitable?—lnto twelve or fourteen small grazing-runs, with suitable areas reserved for fruit-growing, &c. 41. Mr. Meredith.] Would Mr. Gibson explain the means of access to the Clarence country at present?—lt is over a high mountain-range, and difficult of access. There is no reason why a good road should not be made at a reasonable cost. 42. Is it possible for a vehicle to be taken into the Clarence by the present track ? —Yes, by the Upper Clarence Valley to Quail Plat. 43. Would you be surprised to know that Mr. Simms, late manager of the Clarence Run, had to pack in all his material and station requisites on horses ?—As far as packing the material he was right. I had a dray which was brought down the river. 44. You spoke of a dray-road from Hanmer to the Clarence?— Yes, it would be about sixtynine miles to Culverden. 45. You know the country: what do you estimate to be the approximate cost of taking in a road by the best available route to the Clarence country ? —That I could not tell you. There would be no engineering difficulties. 46. Would £10,000?— No. 47. Would £20,000 ?—Yes, and less. 48. It is on the snow-line ; it lies very long in the winter ? —lt is very local, the falls of snow. There has been less in the Clarence than on the coast at times. 49. We come to the Hawke Hills. You say that was included in the pre-emptive right held by Mr. Bullen?—Yes. 50. In the exchange of 3,070 acres for 9,000 acres, does this include the back slopes of Mount Horrible ? —lt does not take in Mount Horrible. 51. It takes in the shoulders and a portion of what is about the heights of Mount Horrible ?— No, only the low, good slopes of Mount Horrible. 52. Mount Horrible ranges from 1,500 ft. to 4,000 ft. and 5,000 ft. . It includes some of these

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9,000 acres given in exchange to Mr. Bullen for the 3,070. Are you aware there is an accommodation reserve at the Conway?—l kuow there is an accommodation-house. 53. There are 140 acres there. It is fenced in a substantial manner, and sown with English grasses. What value would you place on that land —a nice cosy farm ?—About £3 an acre; the land is not very good. 54. I have seen the grass growing luxuriantly there. I say that land ten miles from Rangiora of the same quality would be worth £8 an acre ;asitis it is worth £6 or £7 an acre. Do you think that Mr. Bullen could hoodwink the members of the Land Board?— Yes, certainly; very easily. He could overstock the Dog Hills. 55. Do you think it would be possible to hoodwink Mr. McMillan—he is a capable valuer?— They have no time to visit all those places properly. 56. You say the land in the neighbourhood of Kaikoura should be cut up into lots of 640 acres ? —No Crown land in the locality in less areas would keep a family. 57. Did you not write and ask me to request the Minister of Lands to introduce an amending Land Act to give the people of Kaikoura the right to form themselves into an association to take up the Crown lands in the Kaikoura district, and thereby shut out the public generally?— No. 58. Did you not, at a public meeting at Kaikoura, state that Mr. Bullen hospitably entertained the members of the Land Board ?—You know perfectly well I did not say that. 59. Then lam very glad to hear it from you ?—I never said so. 60. 'You know Mr. Bullen would not lend himself to any such thing?—l know he would not attempt anything improper with the Commissioners. 61. How many acres does Mr. Bullen hold?— About 40,000. 62. How many acres did Mr. Bullen hold in 1896 when the pre-emptive right to purchase was taken from him and others ?—About 30,000. 63. Can you inform the Committee what quantity of the 30,000 acres was purchased in 1866 ?—Most of the freehold was purchased by Mr. Bullen's predecessors. 64. Did Mr. Bullen purchase 28,000 acres of freehold in 1876 ?—That is incorrect, since he acquired this property. 65. You deny the statement that he purchased 28,000 acres since 1866 ?—That is true. 66. Would you be surprised to hear that in 1867 he purchased about 2,000 acres off the Crown ? 67. Your association was in communication with me during 1897?— Quite so. 68. And I promptly and courteously attended to all matters ?—No doubt. 69. I was in sympathy with the Settlers' Association ? —Yes, we looked to you to try and settle the people on the land. Mr. Meredith : Perhaps Mr. McKerrow will explain the matter of the Mount Horrible exchange and the 400 acres on which the boiling-down establishment belonging to Mr. Bullen was. Mr. McKerrow : The Commissioners only valued the land, and left the Crown to deal with Mr. Bullen as regards the boiling-down plant. 70. Mr. Meredith.] The petition contains about 300 signatures, and the petition presented to me to resign my seat for Ashley contained 244 signatures. After comparing carefully the signatures I find that the same signatures are attached to both petitions. Neither petition has age nor residence attached to the signatures ?—ls it requisite? 71. There is neither age nor residence. What I would ask Mr. Gibson is, could he inform the Committee if those who signed the petition are electors on the roll ?—I can inform him they are electors. 72. You believe they are electors ?—So far as I know. 73. Would you believe that in the roll of 1897 —the latest electoral roll—out of 244 signatures on the petition I can only find 147 names on the roll, whilst there are 97 that are not on the roll ?—I went round with the petition myself. Many electors had been struck off the rolls after the last election, and have been registered since. 74. Permit me to say that there are ten names of Gibson on the petition, and there are only seven names on the roll ?—They have been registered since the roll was printed. 75. Hon. Mr. Bolleslon : Are the Commissioners under statutory authority ? Mr. McKerrow : Yes. Mr. McKeeeow examined. Mr. McKerrow: As you are aware the Waste Lands Act of 1867 gives the right of pre-emption to the lessees. These leases expired in 1896, and for the convenience of all were extended a few months, from November to February, 1897. A few months prior to that the Minister of Lands appointed a Commission to classify the runs. The Commission consisted of the Surveyor-General and myself as appointees, and Mr. Weetman as required by the Act. We three were also members of the Land Purchase Board. With this authority we were asked to proceed to the inspection of this country. We set out in October, 1896, accompanied by Mr. J. H. Eedwood, a member of the Marlborough Land Purchase Board, and Messrs. David McMillan and J. B. Green, valuers; and travelled very carefully over the country, taking note of the condition of matters. We saw that in the matter of the pre-emptive rights already alluded to the original holders of the country had acquired as freeholds all the valuable frontages and key-points, and that the present holders had intimated to the Land Board their intention of exercising their pre-emptive rights over other considerable areas of Crown lands. In this way over 800,000 acres of Crown lands were practically land-locked and cut off from access. The Commissioners were thus confronted with the problem of how to make the best of it in the interest of the country. The only power we had to compel a settlement was section 20 of " The Land for Settlements Act, 1894," whereby we could take land on payment of compensation. The Minister of Lands

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intimated to the Commissioners that he would prefer that, in any arrangements we might enter into, we should try and make exchanges. And with that desire we proceeded throughout. ■ In several cases we failed to make arrangements, as the tenants wanted such concessions that the Commissioners were not able to grant them. In the case of Mr. Bullen, after protracted negotiation, we succeeded in corning to an agreement, the effect of which was that he would give up about 3,000 acres of land, part of which had about five miles frontage to the Kahautara River, part lay on the line of the Cheviot-Kaikoura Road, part at Goose Bay, and part on the the main road, Conway, all of which he relinquished in consideration of getting hill country lying behind Green Hills freehold on the Dog Hills and Mount Horrible. This is a country wholly pastoral, and only suitable for summer use. It could not be held as a run unless a portion of Mr. Bullen's freehold had been obtained in association with it. The altitude of this back country is from 1,500 ft. to over 4,000 ft. above sea-level. As regards the 400 acres of land on which the boiling-down establishment was erected by Mr. Bullen, the land was valued at £1 ss. per acre. No account was taken of the buildings or improvements, as it appeared Mr. Bullen had erected the works at a time when he thought the land was his freehold, but which was subsequently discovered to be Crown land. Mr. Bullen was adverse to acceding to the exchange, until the Commission promised him that the Minister of Lands would be recommended to grant him a three years' temporary license over the Spey country, already covered by his pre-emptive right application to the Marlborough Land Board ; also that the Hawke Hills of 4,000 acres would be put up for sale by public auction at an upset not exceeding 10s. an acre; and that, failing the Minister approving of these two proposals, the agreement to exchange lands would cease and determine. I wish to place on record my opinion that the exchange made has been in the interest of settlement, because the obtaining of five miles of frontage to the Kahautara Eiver, the key-front to Goose Bay, and the freehold on the line of the main new road, some 30,000 acres of country well adapted for holding in small runs and farms were opened, and since greatly competed for and taken up. Regarding the give-and-take of the boundary-line between Mr. Bullen and the Small Grazing-run 90, this was a matter of arrangement between himself and the Survey Department. With reference to the Claverley Run, belonging to Mr. William Smith, it lay between Mr. Bullen's property and the sea. He had 3,000 or 4,000 acres freehold for many miles fronting the sea. He was, for family reasons, anxious to increase his holding up to 5,000 acres. He had already application in for a very desirable part of the country for settlement. After negotiations with him we succeeded in getting him to give up a portion of land over which he had a pre-emption, and also part of his freehold fronting the Conway River. He gave 1,308 acres, and he got 1,761 acres of Crown lands as an equivalent. The advantage of this exchange was that we got a frontage to the main road of eight miles, upon which a large expenditure is now being made, and serves a series of farms of from 100 to 600 acres, which have since been taken and settled on. Regarding the Clarence Run, at the present time occupied by the Assets Realisation Board, it is a very large extent of country, over 100,000 acres, of which 17,000 is freehold along the banks of the Ciarence River. It is excellent pastoral country, situated on the inland side of the great seaward Kaikoura Range. It is practically inaccessible for wheel traffic, while to make a road into it would involve an expenditure out of all reason for the purpose it would serve. A good deal of attention has been given to finding an easy route to it, but the result so far is the very steep bridle-track now in use by a pass over 4,000 ft. high. The sheep are driven over this pass once a year to what is known as the shearing-reserve. This is found to put a very serious drawback on the value of this property, for the sheep do not recover themselves for some time after crossing and recrossing the mountain ranges. The Land Department offered this run two years ago on lease without securing a bid. It is a matter of debate at present whether the Estates Board will continue to hold the country at all or not. To cut up the country, as is suggested, into three or four runs may lead to a very great difficulty in the working, because, apart from the cost of fencing, you would still have to drive the sheep over to this shearing-reserve in three or four flocks, and then keep them there for two or three months. The proper way to deal with this class of country is to give a long lease at a low rental, so as to make it worth the while of some persons to take it up. As regards the Puhipuhi country, it consists, as already stated by Mr. Gibson, of 4,000 or 5,000 acres of excellent, wellgrassed limestone country, on the crest of a long ridge, the steep sides of which are clothed with forest. It is quite unsuitable for cutting up into smaller areas for residential settlement, the reason being that there is not a homestead site on the land, with the exception of part of 320 acres at the head of the river ; and to make a road to that point is simply, considering the land that is to be served, not to be thought of. Access to it now is by the bed of one of the mountain torrents that come down from the Kaikoura Range. It is quite practicable to drive stock up and down over the shingle in the flats of the river when it is not in flood. The yarding and working of sheep must be done on the plains below. With regard to exchanges, a great deal of work has been done by the Commissioners, but there is still a great deal to do, which can be best done as time and opportunity permit. Reverting again to the Kaikoura district : There is another run —the Waipapa—which might be subdivided. It is a very good sheep country. The purchase of 3,000 acres of freehold and the extinguishment of the present lessee's pre-emptive right involve compensation in money of several thousand pounds. Under all the circumstances, the Commissioners did not see their way to engage in active negotiation for the acquirement of the property. The lessees are holding on a temporary license, which runs out in February next. 76. Mr. Duncan.] What is your opinion of what would be the cost of forming a practical way of access to the Clarence country ? —There is no actual survey, but it is considered that it would cost nothing under £10,000; and there is the certainty that it would require to be partially remade every year, as there would be a great number of slips after the winter snows. *76a. Mr. Meredith.] Mr. Gibson stated that fruit could be grown there in great abundance'?— Quite right.

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77. But could it be grown at a profit for the outside market ?■—Certainly not; you would to pack it. The station has now thirty pack-horses to carry their supplies. The track becomes impassable for many months in the year. 78. How many miles to Kaikoura ? —lt take about five hours to cross the range to the main road, and then it is about fifteen miles. 79. In reference to Ferniehirst, did Mr. Tinline buy the 9,000 acres or did he exchange?—He bought through the Land Department. 80. Mr. Tinline is a very good settler ?—Yes, he is one of the best of settlers. He has been there for forty years. 81. Then it is not correct that Mr. Tinline is an absentee?— Very incorrect. 82. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] The Commissioners hold their power from the Government by statute ?—Yes. 83. With regard to large blocks, do you hold that it would be better that at the end of twentyone years the holders could renew their leases on fair terms ? As it is now shown, the holder is justified in doing nothing. Would it be better to have the power of renewing, so that the man would attend to his estate ?—Yes, it would be; and to arrange, if possible, for his continuance a year or two before the lease was up. 84. Was this exchange-work done by valuation ? —Yes. 85. Hon. Mr. McKenzie.] You are conversant with the tenure of the Marlborough lands?— Yes. 86. If this legislation did not take place, what would be the position of many of these lands ?— If there was no power of exchange it would simply mean that 800,000 acres of Crown lands would be land-locked, and no one would have access to them except the surrounding freeholders. 87. With regard to this long lease of twenty-one years having a valuation for fencing and sowing grasses, would not that help them ? —At present the valuation for such improvements is limited to a sum equal to three years' rental; it might be extended a little with advantage. 88. For instance, we have the power to give rabbit-proof fences : if that power was extended, would it not give encouragement to tenants to fence their country ?—Yes. 89. Has the action of the Government been in the best interest of the settlement of Kaikoura?—l am decidedly of opinion it has. The Commissioners did a great service to the country in acting in this matter as they did. 90. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Mr. Gibson said that the Government had it in their power to bid for those lands that had been put up for auction ? —lt is quite incorrect and contrary to law. Mr. D. McMillan examined. Mr. McMillan : I was appointed in conjunction with Mr. J. B. Green, of Blenheim, to accompany the Land Commissioners for the purpose of valuing the exchanges that were made. I have no doubt that we put the fair value on the land that Mr. Bullen gave up. The Kahautara freehold had a frontage of five miles and an area of 1,924 acres. This we valued at 17s. an acre. There were two sections that were entirely surrounded by leasehold land, and this we put at 11s. 6d. per acre. Then, there were ten acres at Goose Bay, which we valued at 17s. 6d. per acre. The Hundalee sections, on a main road, at 16s. an acre. Then we valued 480 acres on the Conway, improved and in English grass, at £2 15s. an acre; of that 137 acres was only acquired, being a valuable site for travelling-accommodation. Then, as to the land given in exchange to Mr. Bullen on which the boiling-down plant was erected, we considered the unimproved value of these 400 acres to be £1 ss. per acre ; there were about five miles of fencing; 300 acres had been cultivated, 100 acres surface sown, and 5 acres of plantation : the total value of that land with the improvements, except the boiling-down building, was £2 12s. 6d.. per acre. Then again the part of Green Hills Eun that Mr. Bullen received in exchange was valued at 15s. an acre, and the tops at ss. I think ss. an acre good value for the hilltops. The portion of the Green Hills Eun put up for sale was valued at the same—viz., 15s. an acre, and ss. an acre for the tops. With regard to Ferniehurst, there was an old station-site, which includes a woolshed, worth £200, an iron hut and concrete floor, £100 : the whole of the buildings and fences were worth £365 ; the total value, including freehold and improvements, was £1,107. 91. Mr. Duncan.] How long have you been Valuer for the Government?—l think about ten years. 92. You had experience in making valuations in similar country to this ? —Yes. 93. You heard the evidence given by Mr. Gibson? Do you think the Government made a fair exchange ?—I think Mr. Bullen met the Commissioners very handsomely, and it was a good bargain for the Crown. 94. In no instance did you effect a haggling value on the land? —No. 95. Mr. Meredith.] Have you had many years' experience as land valuer ?—Over twenty. 96. The exchanges were made on the valuations ? —We gave the valuations to the Commissioners, who had to exercise their judgment on what allowance to make for obtaining the access to the Crown lands, our value being for the land alone. 97. You say that ss. an acre was the valuation of the hilltops? —Yes, Mount Horrible and Dog Hills. 98. You have been with the Commissioners when engaged on their duties ?—Yes. 99. From the practical knowledge you have of the colony, do you think the right of exchange should continue ?—I think it is the only possible means by which the country can be worked to the best advantage. 100. If the exchanges did not take place would it be impossible for settlers to get any land in this country?— That is practically so. 101. The Chairman.] When Mr. Gibson was giving evidence he said that owing to the liberal hospitality to the party Mr. Bullen got the best of you ?—Certainly not.

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Tuesday, 4th October, 1898. Mr. Mbbbdith, M.H.E., attended the meeting. 1. The Chairman.] Mr. Meredith, do you wish to call any witnesses in this case ?—-As I presented the petition I ask, in the interest of the petitioners and of all parties concerned, for a full and exhaustive inquiry into the charges of maladministration alleged against the persons mentioned in the petition. You have heard the evidence of Mr. McKerrow, the Chairman of the Land Purchase Board, of Mr. D. McMillan, who valued the Kaikoura lands—these gentlemen, as well as the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and the Surveyor-General, Mr. Percy Smith, are more or less implicated in the petition. If the members of the Committee are of opinion there is no case for the petitioners I leave it entirely in their hands. Personally, I would prefer that the evidence of the whole of the witnesses should be taken. I have summoned no witnesses whatever. I take a neutral position as member for the district, desiring that a full and exhaustive inquiry should be made. Permit me to state that Mr. Bullen is willing to appear before the Committee to make a statement, and submit himself to examination. He is willing to come up from Kaikoura at his own expense. The Chairman: Mr. Percy Smith is away at an important Board meeting, and I told him if the Committee should decide to take his evidence I would telephone for him. Ido not think it is necessary that we should proceed any further after the evidence which was given yesterday by Mr. McKerrow and Mr. McMillan. We can examine Mr. Adams, Commissioner of Crown Lands, Marlborough, who is present. Mr. Flatman: What will the Committee do about calling Mr. Bullen ? Mr. Duncan : The Committee are pretty well satisfied about the evidence given by Mr. Gibson. He misled the Committee. He would not wait to hear the evidence given by the other side. Ido not think there is any case to go on with. The Chairman : That is my opinion. Hon. Mr. Bolleston : It is my opinion, too. Mr. Flatman : I was not here during the whole of the evidence yesterday, so you are better able to judge than I am whether it is necessary to go on. Mr. Duncan : It is not worth while going into the evidence again, as the Committee are pretty well satisfied after the statement of Mr. McKerrow. Mr. Meredith: Will you permit me to put in a letter I received from Mr. Gibson, and which in his evidence he denied sending me, referring to an application made by him on behalf of the Kaikoura Settlers' Association, asking if I would induce the Minister of Lands to introduce an amending Act to give the people of Kaikoura the right to form themselves into an association to take up Crown lands in the Kaikoura district. [See exhibit.] Mr. Meredith : If Mr. Bullen were to come before the Committee he would give evidence as to the quantity of land he holds, and when he acquired these lands. It would then be seen by the Committee that the greater portion of his estate was acquired in 1866-67, under the Marlborough lease. He acquired but little Crown lands, if any, though he might have done so, without outside competition. The Chairman : There have been no aspersions cast upon Mr. Bullen before this Committee Mr. Meredith : I refer to the allegations contained in the petition referring to Mr. Bullen. Hon. Mr. Bolleston : These do not affect Mr. Bullen. Mr. Thomson: There is no reflection on Mr. Bullen. Mr. Meredith : Am I to understand that the Committee do not think it necessary to hear Mr. Bullen. Mr. Duncan : There is no necessity. Mr. Meredith : Should the Committee desire it I will invite Mr. Bullen to be present. Mr. C. W. Adams, Commissioner of Crown Lands, Marlborough, examined. Witness : There are only two points I wish to refer to in connection with this petition. They affect me as Chief Surveyor and Commissioner of Crown Lands at Marlborough. A statement is made that we allowed an alteration of the boundary-fence of Small Grazing-run 90 so as to throw valuable property into the Green Hills Estate. The alteration was made so as to get a good fencingline, which we always strive to do. In a report of the proceedings of the Kaikoura Association, the action of the department in getting good fencing-lines was approved of. We did this in order to get on the ridge of the hill, and with the approval of the District Surveyor, a man in whom we have every confidence. Another thing laid to our charge is that we were not getting lands into the market quickly enough. I will show the absurdity of this charge by referring to page 252 of our annual report, which says that in triangulation and topographical survey we dealt with 484,400 acres last year, heading all the provinces save Auckland. In rural and suburban we were ahead of every province in New Zealand except Auckland and Canterbury. Marlborough is one-seventh of the combined area of Canterbury and Otago, yet we have eleven surveyors in Marlborough to eight in Canterbury and Otago. We are charged with not bringing lands into the market. After these figures it is not necessary that I should say anything more on the matter. This petition is got up by Mr. Walter Gibson and Mr. George Eenner, of Kaikoura Star. They complained some time ago of the rate at which road-works were being carried out. Why, I spent only £5,000 in the whole of Otago the last year I was there, while over £10,000 was spent in the south part of Marlborough last year. Of the names to the petition there are twenty-two which are signed with a cross and attested by Messrs. Gibson and Eenner, or over 7 per cent. Many of these signatures were those of uneducated men and women who did not know what the petition was about. As for fruit-grow-ing in the Clarence, it would be very difficult to get it out if it did grow well, as the tracks are

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dreadful —almost unsafe. It would cost more than the fruit was worth to get it out. It is not too much to say that the pack-tracks are abominable. Why, of the two brothers Symons, one of them has never been in to the Bluff out-station, where the fruit is grown. 2. Mr. Flatman.] Was the expenditure of £10,000 justifiable ?—lt was spent on the main road from Blenheim to Christchurch. 3. Was it a work necessary to be done ?—lt was. 4. How many acres of land have you surveyed for settlement ? —During the year ending the ,31st March last 84,464 acres (rural and suburban), and we have triangulated 484,400 acres. 5. How much has been offered for settlement?— Nearly the whole of it. 6. Have you any more to offer in the near future ?—Yes, for lease in perpetuity. 7. If the Clarence Eun were cut up for settlement in small grazing-runs, what is the probable amount you would get for a run?—We could not get it settled unless we made a road to it. 8. What does the run fetch now ? —£soo a year. 9. It would not pay to cut it up?—lt would not. 10. Would the run pay sufficient to meet the interest the Government would require to maintain a dray-road?— No.

EXHIBIT. Extracts from Letter dated the 3rd November, 1897, addressed by Mr. Walter Gibson, of Kaiwhare, Kaikoura, to Mr. R. Meredith, M.H.R. " You will no doubt have received from Mr. Eenner, the secretary of the newly formed Settlers' Association, a copy of my resolution passed at the late meeting when that body was formed, asking the Minister of Lands to have the law amended so as to allow individual members of associations not less than 640 acres, and that the lease in perpetuity should be one of the optional tenures of association system of taking up land. " I hope you will induce the Minister to make these amendments in the law this session, for they are vital to the successful settlement of the land here. The settlers are most anxious to have this done, so that their sons can get a chance to settle on the lands here under the association system on blocks large enough'for them to live on. "Walter Gibson."

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