LEASEHOLDERS OF NATIVE LANDS AT PATEA (REPORT OF MEETING OF,) ON 9th DECEMBER, 1884.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1887 Session II, G-07

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Sess. 11.—1887. NEW ZEALAND.

LEASEHOLDERS OF NATIVE LANDS AT PATEA (REPORT OF MEETING OF,) ON 9th DECEMBER, 1884.

Presented to both Houses of the General Assembly by Command of His Excellency.

Present: Messrs. A. Wood, Hobbs, Mathewson, G. Newland, W. Symes, J. Lysaght, William Wilson, H. T. Turner, Wilson Brothers, Buchanan, Aiken, D. McGregor, P. Wilson, G. Johnston, W. Gower, G. Bayly, Thurston, Eiddiford, Davidson, Verry, A. Symes, W. Cowern, Nicholson, and Caver hill. Mr. Cowern was elected Chairman. The Chairman said that Mr. Mackay, the Native Eeserves Commissioner, had kindly consented to be present to explain to the leaseholders the effect of the recent legislation upon their several holdings, and the course necessary to be pursued by the leaseholders to obtain the benefits accruing therefrom. Mr. Mackay then said, — The lessees which the Amendment Act of 1884 principally affects are those whose leases have not yet been confirmed under " The West Coast Settlement Eeserves Act, 1881." The first thing then to be done is for such lessees to memorialise the Minister of Native Affairs to appoint a Commissioner under " The West Coast Settlement (North Island) Act, 1880," to take up the question of confirming their leases. This Commissioner will, no doubt, adopt the same course as that pursued by Sir. William Fox. Of course, plans of the leases for confirmation, certified by an authorised surveyor, must be produced. Then comes the question of all the leases coming under clauses 13 and 14 of the Amendment Act, 1884. Mr. Mackay explained by a plan, in which the old survey of a lease between the Tongahoe Stream and Tawhiti when compared with a new survey was found to be half a mile out, and that many of the leases, though not perhaps to any serious extent, overlapped not only one lease with another, but also were involved with two Crown grants. The confirmed and unconfirmed leases being so mixed up, an adjustment cannot be gone into until it is known what leases yet unconfirmed are eligible for confirmation, and it is necessary that a good deal of despatch should be used in the matter. In order to anticipate the work of adjustment of boundaries of leases, Mr. Mackay had already seen Mr. Humphries, the Chief Surveyor of the district, on the subject, and he is thoroughly posted up in all that is necessary to be done. His intention is to get a large plan made of each reserve where leases in which such complications as described are situated, on which he will show the complications that exist. A meeting will then be called of the lessees, at which Mr. Humphries, the Public Trustee, and the Commissioner will be present, and at that meeting should be arranged the question of adjustment of boundaries, and all the other questions consequent thereupon. As soon as this is done, Mr. Humphries will put on a sufficient number of surveyors under contract to survey the several leaseholds as arranged at that meeting, and on the plans which will be the result of those surveys will be based the quantity of land respectively to be included in the fresh leases, according to the adjustment of the several areas comprised in the surrender leases. The cost of these surveys must be borne by the lessees, at an acreage rate, but it is not expected the expense will be much, because the adjusting-arrangements at the meeting will simplify the surveys very much. The next question is that of valuation of lands for the new leases. In the regulations for the leases which have already been issued for that portion of the district between Hawera and Stoney Biver, there is an arbitration clause in reference to valuation of improvements, and also to any disputes that may arise, which reads as in clause 31 (a), (b), (c), (d), and (c). It is always the practice to submit to arbitrators a deed of reference of what they have to arbitrate, and there will be special regulations gazetted for carrying into effect in that respect the provisions of " The West Coast Settlement Eeserves Act Ameudment Act, 1884," in which a form will be supplied for the guidance of the arbitrators in their valuation. The mode of proceeding, so

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far as one can say at present, will be this: The land and improvements in each lease will be valued as a whole at a capital sum, the improvements will then be valued separately; but the improvements must be substantial, in accordance with the interpretation of improvements in the regulations as follows (see section 30). The capital sum of the whole, as mentioned before, viz., the valuation of land and improvements, is first taken; then, to arrive at what rent will be required to be paid for the fresh or new lease, the valuation of the improvements only will be deducted from the capital sum of the valuation of land and improvements combined, and 5 per cent, on the net amount will be the rent to be paid. Take, for instance, a leasehold of five hundred acres, which is valued at the above process, at £8 per acre=£4,ooo net—then 5 per cent, of this amount, £200, will be the rent. These leases, then, when granted, will come under clause 8 of " The West Coast Settlement Eeserves Act 1881 Amendment Act, 1884." These fresh leases will contain the arbitration clause entitling the lessee to have an arbitration in case of valuation of improvements, and also dispute. They will also be under the Land Transfer Act, and will be registered in the District Land Eegistry Office—those in the Taranaki District in Taranaki, and those in the Wellington District in Wellington. Of course all this cannot be done without expense, which must be borne by the lessees. The first will be the cost of plan by authorised surveyor, where necessary, on old leases. The second, a fee for having unconfirmed leases investigated by the Commissioner. The third, fee for adjustment of surveys necessary for granting new leases. The fourth, fee for drawing up fresh leases. These fees will be fixed at such a rate as will just pay the departmental cost; and, as a criterion of some of the charges, I may mention that the drawing-up of the new lease will be £1, the registration of the same 10s., and the stamp duty will be according to the amount of rent to be paid. It would be a great matter if all this could be done so as to admit of the fresh leases commencing on the Ist July, 1885; and, with proper diligence on the part of the lessees, and provided the Survey Department afford every facility, which it will no doubt do, there should be no difficulty in having this accomplished by the date mentioned, viz., the Ist July, 1885. Questions and Answers. After valuation has been adjusted and substantial improvements assessed, will a lessee be entitled, if he choose, to receive the value of improvements in cash instead of continuing lease?— The lessee will only be entitled to receive such payment from an incoming tenant as is defined by the regulations under the Act of 1881 in their application to the leases granted between Hawera and Stoney Eiver. On a submission to arbitration by reference on a form supplied, will that reference contain power for the arbitrators to appoint their own umpire ?—The usual custom of arbitration will be observed. Will it be necessary for all lessees to memorialise for the appointment of a Commissioner ?— No. Only those whose leases have not been confirmed. The valuers will, he considered, take into consideration the fluctuations in the value of stock extending over a period of, say, three years. There will most likely be two valuers appointed by the lessor (the Public Trustee) —one for the district between Waitotara and Patea, and one from Patea to Hawera, who will not be Government officers, so as to be unbiassed; and the lessees should appoint valuers in a similar mariner. Does this Act affect single grantees ?—lt does. There seems to be a misunderstanding in the matter ?—lt affects all lessees within the confiscated territory. Up to what date does the power of confirmation extend ? —To all leases dated previous to the 24th September, 1881. The new leases will be for thirty years. I think all the business could be done by the end of June, and the new leases date from the Ist July, 1885. Is bush-felling considered a substantial improvement ? —A good deal of argument has taken place on this subject; but it is not considered as coming under the category of substantial improvements, as the lessee in leasing bush-land gets it at a lower rent as compared with open land, thus discounting its ultimate value at time of taking the lease; but there will be a direction given to the valuers specially on this head. Will it be optional for lessees whose leases have been confirmed to surrender at any time ? —lt will be necessary that all lessees on any one reserve should agree to surrender their leases at the one time. Suppose one of them does not agree ? —He will have to abide by the act as regards boundaries being adjusted, and will pay more or less rent according to the adjustment. If he owns a lease that overlaps another he must abide by the common arrangement. Can a lessee surrender his lease at any time and have a new one ?—The option lies with the Public Trustee whether a lease can be surrendered or not. If lease is surrendered lessee will get the opportunity of taking a fresh lease, or forfeit the improvements. Will the old tenant be allowed to go on at a low rent ?—That depends on the valuation upon which the rent is calculated, as I explained before. When the valuation is made of land and improvements, could not the land in the ordinary course of things be put up to tender if the lessee wished; and will not the lessee receive cash value for improvements from incoming tenant, or, failing any tender, have a right to take it at the price fixed by the arbitration ?—Yes. Can you give any information re overlapping of leases ; and would it not be fair for the person

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longest in occupation to have the advantage ? —lt would, I think, be a just thing to permit the longest lessee to have that privilege. An amicable adjustment of boundaries overlapping it is hoped will be arrived at between yourselves, the Public Trustee, the Chief Surveyor, and the Commissioner. In readjusting the rent, I understood you to say there should be a direction given to valuers re stock ?—They should take into consideration the market-value for, say, three years previous. I assume the valuers will be local persons, and I undertake there will be a direction given to take the question of markets into consideration in assessing value of land. The valuers appointed by both the Government and the lessees will be supplied with the same directions how to arrive at their valuations. Will there be any direction given to the umpire ?—The two arbitrators and the umpire will have to be on the ground together; and, should the arbitrators disagree, reference could then be made at once to the umpire, and the whole question settled then and there. Can you give us some idea as to the cost of resurvey ?—No, I cannot; but it will be arranged for at as cheap a rate as possible. Is it necessary that leases that are not confirmed must come under the Act ?—Yes ; lessees with unconfirmed leases have no title whatever.

[Approximate Cost of Paper.—Preparation, nil; printing (1,375 copies), £2 is.]

By Authority: George Didsbury, Government Printer, Wellington.—lBB7.