FULLER PARTICULARS.

Waikato Times, Volume XXVI, Issue 2149, 17 April 1886, Page 2

FULLER PARTICULARS.

Alexandra, April lGth. Mr Ballance, the Native Minister, accompanied by Mr Lewis, Native Under-Secre-tary, Mr Lewis, junr., Mr G. T. Wilkinson, native agent, Mr G. Brown, intrepreter, WiPeri, M.H.R., and Major RopaU, left the Alexandra Hotel on foot yesterday morning to hold a meeting with TawhLio at his settlement at Whatiwhatihoe. On arriving there, at the meeting house, Tawhiao, with Major Te Whooro and other chiefs, receivtd and welcomed the party. I have already wired you a short summary of the proceedings that took place, particularly i elating to a letter sent by Major Te Wheoro for Tawhiao to Mr Wilkinson on December 15th, 1885, protecting againvt the Government allowing certain lands to be surveyed at Kawhia, in which lands Tawhiao and Te Wheoro claim to have an interest. To Wheoro read .what he says wa» a copy of the letter sent, and made a most bitter complaint against Mr Wilkinson for the answer reoeived from him by the Native Minister's instructions. Te Wheoro stated that he had been in the Government service for 24 years, aud had never seen or hoard of so insulting n. letter having been sent to any one by any Government official. How then, said Te Wheoro, addressing Mr Ballance, can I believe you are anxious to come to some amicable terms with us after sending no insulting a leter. I will get the letter published in English. Have I committed any wrong? Mr Ballance, you .were a friend of mine for years; why should you write to rae in this manner ? I say, if those are your words, how oan I believe you wish to make a satisfactory agreement between the two races ? I hope, however, this will not stand between you and Tawhiao endeavouring to find a, way to unite us. It is for you two to do it. You, as representing the Government, nnd Tawhiao the Maori people. I never replied to this letter, but when the chiefs went down from here to Auckland, I wrote to Mr Wilkinson, telling him I could not attend with them to see the Governor after receiving such a letter. Mr Ballance : I hardly think tha sun is shining now. A cloud appears to have come over us, but one that will be cleared . away. I think this is one of those misunderstanding that can be cleared up, like many others could have been. Had we met morn frequently to see each other such an angry correspondence could hardly have taken place. Te Wheoro appears to think it was not* my desire to reconcile the. differ-

ence.s between Tawhiao and the Go\rrn mont. I feel ceiUin li vl M.'jm Te Wheoio come and discussed the «cir-tion with me hu would not have lecened that lctt"r L.wt time I was here, hist year, I received a letter from him, saymg that ho had no bo-mess with me. 1 ha\e t»aid nii.snnderHtandingK take place, and h;nc ariheu because we have not known each other intimately for years, since there has boon a difference between us. If we knew each other better none could take place. Now, as to this letter. I say dcliheiately that the letter now read by Major Te Wheoro is not the name as sent to inc. In the one sent there was a distinct threat mad* to the Government that he would take the law into his own hands. lam prepared to pro duce that letter— it is in Alexandra— and compare it with the one now read as a cony of it, and then we will see how this differiMice has arisen. You know my position in the Government. I am there to carry out the law. Anyone must know that when a per-on threatens to break it, it is not likely t<< make one feel very well pleased. I fully reciprocate Major To Wheoio's feelings. We were friends many years ago, great fiiends, and I hope we may continue «o. If I find when wo compare the letters that Te Wheoro did not write tho words, I am prepared to withdraw my letter written by Mi Wilkinson. I think this is a fair offer. I feel certain when we meet and compart* the letters it will remove all difficulty. I see now there has been some mistake, and I icpeat my words that the words he read out are not the same as in mv letter. One word about the survey at Kawhia. A letter from Pouwhare asking for a Land Court was sent to the Government. We did not hear from Tawhiao. It is clear Government have been going one way and Tawhiao another, hence the misunderstanding. It only confirms what I Raid at the commencement of the meeting, that our relations have not been so cordial as they should have been. In regard to the people handing over their lands to Tawhiao, it was not expected that I should look upon that as friendly. I could not see why they should do so, and Tawhiao never explained the reason that I might understand. If I went over all the differences between us I might take weeks to do so. I say let us now commence a new policy as between us. With regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government are prepared to adhere to the sDirit of that treaty. The Maoiis have broken it, and the Government also at their desire. I think there was some difference also in the natives' interpretation of Lord Derby's dispatch to the Governor. The English Government has no more power to instruct the New Zealand Government than the Russian Government has. You must romember the Government of New Zealand is the Government of the Queen, the same as the English Government. The Governor is sent out to represent the Queen, and the two Houses of Parliament mnke the laws of New Zealand. lam assured mistakes have been made by you. I told you, Major Te Wheoro, twelve months ago. Why did you not write home and enquire? If you had it would have been made clear. The Treaty of Waitangi secures the natives their lands, and I a>n prepared to adhere to the spirit of that treaty, but circumstances arise that make it unsuitable for both races*. The Maoris wish to dispose of their lands as they choose. English laws are not like the laws of the Medes and Persians, unalterable— but are made to benefit the people, and are at times improved to suit their circumssances; that is why I ask Tawhiao to come and help to make suitable laws. Never has any one treaty between nations not been modified at times. The Medes and Persians have passed off the face of the earth. You would like the laws changed. Lot us look at this treaty of Waitangi with common sense. It need not be broken. Tne 1 mds belong to the Maori I>eople under the hoveAiignty of the Queen. '. hope in futmc all will be clear and straightforward. If any differences arise, ! let us meet and discus.- them together. Major Te Whero : — Your words are good, I wish to see those letters compared, as it is in consequence of those letters that we have been kept npart. I did not in my letter make any threat. I will give you my copy of the letter. What you say is good, but let all this matter about the letter be cleaved first. Now I will speak about lands being handed orer to Tawhiao. The proposals was made years ago. I can give you the reason. Matakore thought thair aucestors and others gave it to Te Wnero Whero. I took no part in it. I was then in the Government Service. They now give it to Tawhiao as Te Whero Whero is dead. It was given over in ISoS. Ngatiinaniopoto were represented by Paku and Tv Korehu. Mr Wilkinson says this work is mine. I approve, but it was hinded over years ago. Now you know why the lands are handed over to Tawhiao. With regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, no doubt there were things not desirable jii'st now. It was right that both European* and natives should concur in any deviation. Tt. was in 1805 the Government of New Zealand obtained the management of native affairs and in 18(iG Native Land Courts were allowed to operate on native lands. The Native Laud Courts caused all the the troubles. Then the chiefs were not listened to. Tho authority was distributed amongst the people. That waa one of the groat points in which the treaty had been broken. There are other things that I cannot speak of, as at that time I was on the other side, (side of the Government). Another thing. Assessors were appointed and then dispensed with, which lessened their authority. Lord Derby's despatch was translated by you, and if there is any mistake in it you are responsible. [Te Wheoro then read the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of Lord Derby's despatch to Governor Jervoii]. We went to England to get our remedy from the Queen. You say there was no reason for our going to England. We reply, thero waa. Some attention was paid to us. The New Zealand Government would not listen to us. Now the matter remains with you. I will now sit down. It is for you and Tawhiao to try and devise some laws between you to benefit the P3ople. I am pouri (dark) about that matter. Mr Ballance i Your words are good, and 7 boliove some good will result from them. I will go over the grounds you have taken, although I with that some of them bad been left out. After thi« I hope the past will be buried. Let us seek for good in the future. With regard to Te Wheoro's letter, let them be compared and see who is wrong. If lam wrong I will admit it. I woula like all cleared between us. I cannot forget old associations. If I find no threat was made I withdraw my letter. If he is wrong I hope he will withdraw. It will have to be settled between us. We will read them over together. Is that satisfactory to you Major Ta Wheoro ? Major Te Wheoro : Yes, and I will acknowledge it if I am found in the wrong. But how about the survey that has been done? Mr Ballance : I will explain that to yeu afterwards. I have never objected to lands being handed over to Tawhiao, if the lands so handed were the giver's own land*. I should be very glad to see such lands handed over to him, but it is the handing over of lands belonging to others I object to. When a man has proved his right, he can give them away if he choose to Tawhiao. This is new to you, but I could have explained it before if asked. Te Whooro says before any part of the Treaty of Waitangi is altered both sides should concur. I think so to. I hope what has been done in tho past will now close. Te Wheoro says that in 1865 native affairs were handed over to the control of the New Zealand Government without the consent of the natives. It was the Imperial Government who did this. Who made the confiscation of your laws? They were the criminals. Why, I ask, did not Major Te Wbeoro ask the Government of England when he was there whether it was they or the Government of New Zealand who confiscated their lands? Let Major Te Wheoio answer this. Te Wheoro: Now? Mr Ballance : No ! It was done before 1805, so that it was England. lam surprised Major Te Wheoro did not settle this with England when he had the oppor tunity. Te Wheoro objects that the Native Land Court destroys the authority of the chiefs. I agree that the chiefs are the natural guardians of their people. He referred to the power of assessors being broken. I agree with him, but since my accession to office I have raised their position. They now ait with European magistrates on the bench in any mutter where natives are concerned. I wish to raise the Maori race to an equality with the Europeans. The Governor will answer the resolutions you sent down by letter in a few dafa. I never objected to the natives going home to England. They can go when they please ; it is the right of every subject to go to the foot of the Throne with his petition. But I said their redress would never come from that quarter. Mr Ballance continued speaking for a considerable time, and was attentively listened to, Tawbiao then rose and aaid ; Listen.

What you nay is true, that is th.>«o words I understand. lam tho won of oii<- of thos« who nude the treaty of W.iitiußi. 1 am in .iccord with what yon ha\o sud. Tf the conditions of tho Treaty of Wait.ingi are carried out, tliov will benefit nil the people in tho island. Onn woul to conclude. Lot all matters bo considered and di-cusscd be tween us c.irefully. If we unit <■ .t i oti-clu-ion, let it bo a linn mi tn beneht others th.it coino after its !\ns is an nn pditint work; let othi.t .t.»rk cea«o till this is concluded. Let something bo done th it will be peiniancnt. Mr Ballanco : I thank Tawhho for his winds. It is tight wo should consider t.ucftdly tug>'ther what modules might be ta'ien for the beneht of tho Maori 1 tec. Wi Pcie addresspd the mooting at considerable length and rofei red to the Tanpo L'ind Court. Ho approved what had been done at tho meeting. Te Whcovo iniswercd him evpressing the the natives' pleasure at lih bt-ing pro-ient as a native member of the Houhc He .isked liim to assist T.iwliiao and Mr Rxllance in coining to an arrangement. Ho would have lik»d To P<iko, another Maori member, to have been prtsentalso. Mrßallance: Ih.ue heard the sngsrestion of Major Te Wlieoro, that we nhould ox once go into consideration of tho (postions between us. lean tell you that Te Puke had intended to come. I in u ted him to accompany me, and had accepted, but at the last moment was unable to come. I piopo?e that Tawlnao and I go into the questions between us at once ; let us go into Alexandra logelhrr. We can go into the matter this evening, a.s I must return to Auckland to-morrow. Tawhiao said : I am not prepared to talk buMnens {his evening. Let Mr Hallance stay. I say this is a great work, not to be done in a, hurry. I say pur aside your other work Send a telegram if you have business in Auckland ; it cannot be so important as this, which has taken years of consideration. L«t us now try and settle it. After some good humoured conversation, an agreement was come too that Tawhiao hhonld escort bis vi.sitoru to Alexandra. Mr Ballance to remain and confer with him to-morrow. Food was presented to the visitors and returned by them to the natives, who quickly did it full justice. Tawhiao came into Alexandra and dined with Mr Ballance and party, as also Rewi, who had arrived with Major Te Wheoro and other chiefs.