General Assembly.

Waikato Times, Volume XIII, Issue 1142, 21 October 1879, Page 2

General Assembly.

[PBESS ASSOCIATION.] HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Fbxdat. The House met at 2.30 p.m. Keplying to Mr Ireland, Mr JBowen said he would cause a report to be furnished as to the provision in regard for weighing farm produce at the railway stations where suoh goods wero received for transit. Replying to Mr Why te, Mr Oliver said the question of fencing any part of the railway line in any part of the V?aipa and Waits ato district opened up a large question, and the Government was not yet prepared to deal with it. ohbistchtikoh: election. The petition against Sir George Grey's return for Christchurch was next brought up. . Mr Hislop stated a technical objection, grounded on the fact that the declaration accompanying the petition had mot been stamped in terms of the Act. The objection was overruled. The Speaker announced that Mr Richardson, the petitioner, had named Mr Moorhouse to represent him. Sir George (iery named Mr Downie Stuart, and the Speaker appointed Mr Fulton as Chairman of the Committee of Inquiry. The remainder of the committee are to be struck for to-morrow. The House adjourned at 5.20 p.m. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. THE NATIVE STATEMENT. Mr Bryce said he thought the Opposition would give him credit for being a silent member — one who did not occupy 1 the House with many remarks. He asked to be allowed to say a few words with regard to the position of the Government. He claimed that the * Government had been put there fairly. They got there under no false pretences. Mr Sheehan had announced during the the late motion of noconfidence debate, that a coalition was impossible. It was in view of the fact that the Government would have to be formed from their own party, so ib was unfair now to say anything to the contrary. The Opposition may, as they state, have a majority, still he would ask them to concede what was evidence — that, as a Government, they represented a very considerable section of the blouse. He made these remarks as he did not intend taking any part in the debate on ths proposed want-of -confidence motion. It had amused him to see the alarm with which what was called by the Opposition the detective Ministry was regarded. It reminded him of the high Scriptural authority, "The wicked flee when no man pursueth." He would now proceed to deal with the mode in which his department had been conducted, the system of personal Government that had been pursued, and he would afterwards deal with the facts connected with the department itself. Most of the members of the House desired to see great changes in this department, to see the personal Government of tho Native Minister done away with. It was the feeling of the country, and he quite agreed with the feeling. He could remember the good old days when, personal Government in this department "was in full bloom, but he was mistaken if the late Sir Donald McLoan was of the same opinion latterly One time a little outlay went a great length with the Maoris. A few blankets and sugar and tea were all they asked. Now, however, their demands had risen with the change in the administration of affairs, and they talk about as much as a million of money. Under Sir D. McLean he believed the department was being raaunerl, bnt under the late Government it had returned to all its pristine glory. The late Native Minister had been waited upon and communicated with far too much by the Maoris. It was no uncommon thing for hire to receive 100 or 150 telegrams in one day, all of the same tenor — demands for money, or money's worth. He read a specimen telegram, in which £2000 was demanded. That was only one of many similar communications on the same subject. He had been absolutely astonished at the amount of money which had been taken out of the control of the House and appropriated by the Native Minister in this way. The O pposition had said that they knew of all this before. Well, he could only say that not very long ago they were of a very different opinion as to its policy. He would give another example of the mode of personal Government. In 1878-79, £20,000 were placed on the Estimates for native districts, reads, and bridges, and it was, practically sneaking, handed over to the sole dispssal of the Native Minister. Persons come to him, and say, " Give us out of the vote for this and that work," and he seemed to have done so without anything like inquiry. He then went on to enumerate a variety of sums expended upon different country roads, amounting to as much as £4000 in the Thames County alone. £12,0(50 had been expended in this way. He understood these roads were, to a great extent, in a goldmininaf district, and not virtually a native district. That alone would shew that the detailed expenditure of a very large sum of money had passed away from the control of this House. There were 151 native pensioners, 80 native assessors, and 80 policemen, amongst whom a sum of £8500 was divided. Then he would shew that the expenditure was spreading in another direction. A native chief brought a trial against a European, and, after two trials, the bills of cost are sent for payment, and would have been paid if payment had not disqualified a member of the House. These things were apt to grow upon a Native Minister, and be could quite believe that if he was left too long in office it would be the same with himself He contended that the Native Minister had no more right to make these disbursements than any private member in the House Another direction in which these proceedings had a pernicious effect was this: Some Maoris had given their sons a tolerably good education, and then insisted on getting them into tho civil service There is no department for them, and they are kept going about Wellington at a cost of £700 per annum. At present the matter was trifling, but it was a thing rapidly growing, and unless promptly cheeked all the young natives would be sent to Wellington to loaf on the Government. Last year the appropriations in this department was £47,330 ; and the expenditure, £54,498. One of these items for contingencies the vote was £2500, and the expenditure £18,590. The Land Purchase Department was produced, and laid on the table. It had been argued that this branch of the public Svrvice might be successfully carried on for settlement, and yet not be a commercial success He denied the correctness of that theory, and quoted figures in support of his argument. He shewed that when the land was handed over from the Maoris the really good land was readily taken up, whereas the bad land was left on the hands of the Government. The total appropriation for the use of the Native Land Department was £732,000, and the amount expended £705, 000. I hat left a small balance which, however, had disappeared. Last quarter the purchase amounted to £24,000, and for the current year he estimated the expenditure at £200,000. To complete the transaction entered into, a sum of £1,181,000 would be required. The salaries of officers of tho department amounted to £10,285, and that was voted in a lump sum. He thought the time had arrived to. consider tho policy

of this land purchase system. In a late report from a land agent on the West Coast, he stated that two or three years ago he could have got land for 2s 6d per acre for which as much as 7s 6d was now demanded. He knew of his own knowledge that a very great deal of it was, practically speaking, useless for settlement^ He instanced other cases, and was speaking from his own knowledge. It was not worth more than Is 6d per acre. When the late Government took office, native. affairs were in a hopeful state. He would ask, were native affairs in a hopeful state now? It only required a little patience and a little firmness to make things beneficial to both races. Going amongst them, fondling them, and making them believe we want something from them had been most disastrous to the interests of all concerned. He could see no reason for keeping a large defence force in the Waikato. If there was a probability of the late Ministry coming back to office within the next few days, he (Mr Bryce) would take good care that if he could do no good in the interim he would do no harm. lie thought is was but right that the Waimate Plains grievance should be inquired into Still he did not think that the late troubles would be healed by anything that could be done in that direction These troubles lay much deeper than this Waimate Plains difficulty. He passed a warm eulogium upon the forbearance shewn by the natives affected by these outbreaks. It was painful to see the low estimate in which the English law apparently was b*ing held, and he would ask the House to consider whether or not this personal Government had not something to do with it. To cure this melancholy state of affairs, he would be for doing away with the Native Department as a department. He would relegate the native schools to the Education Department. The native roads, &c, should be placed, not nominally, but actually, under the Public Works Department, and an appropriative vote made by the usual Parliamentary authority. The native pensions he would place under the Colonial Secretary's department. Then, again, the Maoris should have some means of placing their lands before the public for sale, either through the Waste Lands Board, or otherwise. The Board would provide for the survey and sub-division of these lands, together with a small percentage for opening np land by roads. The net balance could then be handed over to the Maori owners, he would also provide the means for investigation, so that the Maori would have the opportunity of making permanent provision for himself. Those, however, were his own sentiments, and had not been fully considered as yet in the Cabinet. Those were his views on the point. If members approved of them, good and well ; if not, they knew the course to pursue in the circumstances in which they were about to be placed. He moved the adjournment of the House. Mr Sheehan said that it was quite true that, as a Government, they refused coalition. What they wanted was reconstruction. He admitted the present Government had the support of just sufficient members to give them a decent minority. In Mr Bryce's fair statement they had been told about personal Government, but the fact was it was merely a name. _ Every Minister in the exercise of the duties of the department exercised to a certain extent personal Government. It was true that the ideas of the Maoris were more extravagant than they had been years ago. He thought that was simply a natural result of the present condition of affairs. He contended that the policy of the members of the Government going amongst the tribes was good. There was a native gentlemen in the 11 ouse Avho took part with the late Government. If he got the opportunity of going amongst them again, within the next few months he will have completed a solution of the present , difficulty.^ The facts oithe JE2OOQ transaction, to which the Native Minister alluded were these : The Maori, an officer of the Government, built a house at the Thames, to the honor of the Queen and law. He had to get the £2000 to defray the cost. In this emergency he (Mr Sheehan) found a promise of the late Sir Donald McLean to give this Maori £1000 for services rendered. He (Mr Sheehan^ paid the other £1000. The other £1000 was advanced on the land of the Maori, and could bs realised upon to-morrow if wanted. A great deal was made of the £15,000 expanded upon roads, &c. In three years the sum disbursed in this way was about £150,000. The money in question had been given to and disbursed by the local public bodies, the road boards and county councils. Maori pensioners, assessors, and police were creations of the past, long before he (Mr Sheehan) tcok office. Corrupt practices had been initiated by the previous Governments, aud, having been so initiated and practiced, the late Government felt itself compelled to do likewise. They were literally compelled to do so. The policy all through of the late Government had been to secure the Maori lands, instead of allowing them to pass into the hands of private speculators. They completed more negotiations in 12 months than their predecessors had done during a period of five years. The proposal for the disposal of the Maori lands was a most pemicuous one, and one which would play into the hands of the land rings. The grievance was that he had taken precautions against that being done. There were at present men in _N e w Zealand who would buy the whole country could they do so. For his own part, he should be in favor of abolishing all the land boards, sn far at least as the North Island is concerned, and ailow the lands to be administered by the Government His experience of these boards was, that they invariably favored some party unduly. That was what he would do, and not as suggested by the Native Minister, increase their powers by allowing- them to administer the native lands. Alluding to the West Coast difficulty, he said promises had been made which were not fulfilled. That was a fruitful cause of difficulty. The Bay of Islands difficulty had been alluded to. 'he fact was that that was a survey difficulty, with which the Native Department had nothing at all to do. In Great Britain and Ireland outrages similar to those which had taken place in New Zealand were of frequent occurrence, and yet no one there thought of making the administration of Great Britain responsible therefor. Mr Bryce talked of abolishing the .Native Department. His _ own proposal, however, showed he did not believe in what he he said. He proposed to place the native schools under the Education Department, and some other native matters under the Colonial Secretary. What wes that but breaking up one department for the express purpose of creating two or three others. The fact is that so long as the Maori was a different speaking class, it would be quite impossible to have affairs administered by a department separate and distinct from that of the Europeans, j If the House would pass a law enabling j the Maoris to offer their land either to the Government or by public competition, then it would have his support The land should be offered with all charges — opening up roads, making surveys. &c.,. If so, very little would remain for the owner. This idea would be the cost of the surveys to be defrayed by the Government. That would assure aocuracy of survey, and otherwise tend to promote settlement. The excess of expenditure over appropriation was authorised by the country, in order to settle the difficirity connected with the King question. Then, again, a considerable charge on that vote was fairly chargeable against ' the laud purohas funds. At Cambridge,, '

for example, some hundreds of cases had to be put through the Laud Court, and great delay took place in consequence, The Government had tried to keep the applicants there, or else send them away at the Government expense and bring them beck again, when these case3 could be taken up. He warned Mr Bryce of this. If he attempted to carry out all that he proposed, the result "would be incalculable evil. If the impending struggle resulted in the Government retaining their Beats, ho (Mr Sheehaa) would give him aid in carrying out what might fairly be esteemed a sound course with regard to tliis matter. Major Atkinson argued that the moral standard set by the late Government was simply one put in comparison with that of previous Governments. They never met one of the charges brought against them, but always referred back to what had been done previously. He denied that the Government of 1875 had spent more money on the department than the late Government had done. The whole aim of the Native Minister was to show that Parliament should have the control of the expenditure, and that it should not be left wholly to the Minister.. Mr Thomson spoke in defence of the remarks made by Mr Sheehan. Mr Te Wheoro made a few remarks. After which the House rose at 1 a.m.