HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday.

Waikato Times, Volume 354, Issue VII, 20 August 1874, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday.

After the adjournment, the debate on the abolition resolution was resumed by Mr Thompson, (Clutha), who maintained that the iiupecuniosity of the North Island provinces was solely due to the way the Premier managed the capitation allowance. The Premier did not yet tell the House whether he had the- Governor's sanction for the dissolution. (Hear.) The present resolution was intimidating tin its character. Many of the North Island members were deterred from voting against it because they were afraid their provinces would receive no assistance. It w.as absurd to talk about the colonial money spent in the North Island provinces. "Was not all the money spent borrowed money. The South Island provinces, however, did not want more expenditure than they deiived legitimately. It was no reason because Wellington was a thorn in the flesh of the. Government that the provinces should be abolished. The colony had now its hands full. The work" Was premature. It was not in any way urgent enough to demand a dissolution. They should postpone the question and gi\e. the colony an opportunity for discussing the whole question on its merits. Although not in the same boat with the Premier he did not want the Ministry to resign. He was sorry the Premier was overworked. His colleagues were little assistance to him. He had to bear all the work, and the Ministry certainly wanted reconstructing. After a long pause Mr J. L. Gilliea said : Why this diffidence of the Government supporters in following the Opposition supporters { Were they relying solely upon a majority ! This was a confession of weakness. The Premier said he had approached such a grave question with diffidence ; but this was pitch-forked before the House and on the spur of the moment, apparently begotten of an ebullition of temper in consequence of the justifiable opposition on the Forests Bill, outraging common sense. The Premier endeavoured to make members believe the question C6ncerned the North Island only. Carry this, and 'the South Island must suffer the same in a short time. What would be the practical result of carrying .the resolution but throwing the Government of the colony into the, .hands of selfish capitalists? Was this the rest the Premier promised the colony last year \ Including the four millions authorised this year the colony had borrowed twelve millions. It was a strange way of resting truly. Talk of the economy of central administi-ation. Otago spent £572,000, with a departmental expenditure of £3950, The General Government spent in Otago in the same time £106,000, with a departmental expenditure of £6987. He would boldly challenge a comparison. As for their land revenue the General Government could take it, and only give them their ordinary revenue. Who was the greatest advocate of getting rid of their lands to prevent the General Government from appropriating them? Who but the present Commissioner of Customs when in the Provincial Council. Pass this resolution and they would be.tqjd, as they had been before, that the need of the colony was greater than the needx>f .the pvoyincpsyfcwiithey would take the land revenue from them. Withdraw this hybrid schema. Let constituencies declare their wishes. In a few more years the provinces would abolish themselves naturally. As yet it was" premature. Sonic delay occurred, nobody getting up to speak. Mr Macandrew suggested an adjournment. ' He was not ready, and the Government supporters did not seem inclined. Mr T. B. Gillies seconded. Sir, Donald McLean and Mr O'Conor opposed. Mr Takamoana objected to doing away with Superintendents. He believed in two Parliaments. With only one troubles would never cease, except when the Maoris died out. Mr Katene considered the resolution a good one. Why should two legislatures eat up the flesh of the coloziy 1 Could not this colony do the the same as others do with one Government? He knew of the evil by experience. Mr Reid made a long 'speech .in opposing the resolutions. No good' reasons had been given for, the resolution. ' Why commit themselves to a barren resolution that probably wpuld never come to anything. The North Island provinces were poor, but in a few years they would have 'more revenue than *tho Colonial Government. , Had they the expenditure of money the Generaj Government -talked of, they woulol have spent it to considerably greater advantage. Why cavil about a name ? Let them make County Road Boards and they could not get along without a controlling central one, and that would be equivalent to a province, and be more expensive than the present one. He predicted the scheme proposed would result in utter failure. The great objection 'to the scheme waa that the depart-

mental expenditure would be doubled, and the power of the General Legislature would be dangerously increased. He was confident the North Island people would revolt at the idea of being governed by a Government Agent, Under Secretaries, and Engineers. He did not so much object to experimental legislation, but objected to tampering with the sacred Constitution. He quoted a lengthy extract from the speech of Mr Vogel in 1 868, in defence of the Constitution and provinces. Pie would vote for the previous question. On ,the motion of Mr Macandrew the debate was adjourned, Tuesday. Mr Macandrefw did not know that he could say much that was new on the subject, but he would not be justified in remaining silent on so important a question. It wanted grave forethought and consideration ; but he was much afraid it had not received that, or' it would have been mentioned in his Excellency's speech. Of all the reasons that were urged against the Government proposals, the strongest was, that it aimed at the root of local self-government. Some would be opposed to it on the ground that local government, to be successful, must be in the hands of persons accessible to the people, and experience showed that the departmental expenditure of the Government was assuming an alarming magnitude as compared with our means and requirements. Others would oppose it because it .would soon lead to the colony having a common purse, and next the obliterating of the compact of 1856. For all these reasons he opposed' the resolutions. He clearly saw it would lead to unmistakeable spoliation* Hon members must be very verdant to suppose that any legislation could make the land fund more secure than it was now. If they passed the resolutions they would soon have to look for their landed revenue being swept into the maelstrom and vortex of colonial finance. He and all his fellow members were in that House solely to protect their landed estate — the apple of their eye, as it was to them. If they did not resist this insidious, attempt, and sacrifice all minor considerations, they would be betraying the interests of their constituents. He could not see how the Southern members could allow themselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter. Why, he would ask, was the measure introduced at all, when it was not demanded. On the face of it it really amounted to nipping in the bud the dawning self-reliance of the Northern Island after the exhaustion of the war. They had heard of the ferocious blue gum of the colony, but could they not liken the Colonial Government to the upas tree, that deadly and pestiferous plant, beneath whose shade life dies and death lives. That was its relation to the provinces. Why humiliate the North Island in this manner by educating them to spring upon their neighbours 1 When there were petitions from the people, in favour of this measure, of the North Island, it would be time to move in the matter. Why was the provincial system in the North Island becoming effete? It was because of the General Government Loan. They asked them to build and gave them no straw to make the bricks, and because they failed they said we will abolish you. If the honorable gentleman had said I will come down with a measure to clip the wings of the General Government in the North Island that would have been a statesmanlike proposal. But that would yet be demanded by the'people in a voice like thunder. When the £10,000,000 which had been borrowed shall have been Bpent, leaving us, as all knew they would leave us, as only having £5,000,000 actual value, it would then be found that the provinces would have been the best machinery to spend that money. He cautioned hon members not to be blinded by the proposals of the Government. If they did they would 'find out, when too late, that there was no surety or protection against the neediness or caprice of the Government of the day. (Applause.) Mr Reynolds said, no one had yet shown any good reason why the resolution should not be agreed to, with the exception perhaps of the hon member for Port Chalmers ; and he could be said to give a disinterested opinion. It was untrue to say that the proposals were new, because they had been brought before the House on various occasions from 1863 to 1872. The hon member then proceeded to quote from the records of the House, and also from the speech of the hon member for Port Chalmers in favor of the abolishment of all the provinces in the Middle Island. Mr Reynolds then proceeded to quote from the speech of the Hon Mr Fox, at the same time replying to the hon member for Port Chalmers, to show that though the proposal was then inopportune, a very few more years must declare the necessity for the consolidation of all the provinces. He also quoted from the speeches ol several other members of the House, who spoke differently in favor of abolition of provinces, including the member for Auckland City West, and Mr Bruce, the member for Waitake, The hon member for , Taiera had asked why they introduced the proposal. He would tell him that the consideration of the wanta of the provinces had forced it upon them. Whatever dissatisfaction they had expressed at the Financial Statement and its provisions, the hon member for Port Chalmers said, to protect their land fund, they are prepared to sacrifice all minor considerations. Well, he would, assure hon members that the Government were prepared to give all security possible to satisfy them on that point. They would go so far as to pass an Act to secure that land to them, with this provision, that if at any future time the House desired to repeal it, it must be done by appeal to Her Majesty in Council. As regarded the other points of the Opposition speeches, it was not necessary to detain the House where the arguments were so light. Mr Steward said that his constituency was more directly interested in the question than any other, and if on voting on this question he found he opposed their wishes, he would allow them to send some one else to represent them. . He had Jbeen a colonist for thirteen years,, during which time the question had been considerably under discussion, and he felt firmly convinced that if the public voice was ascertained it would be found to declare almost unanimously in favor of the resolutions. The position and history leininded him strongly of the Siamese Twins when the doctors discussed about seveiing the attaching ligature, and the opinion was that it would be fatal to both. That was the case of the Separation question now. One of the brothers was suffering from a broken, useless limb, and the old cry was raised that to cure it would injure the other brother. That was in fact the present position of the colony, as the Government proposed to cure the diseased limb. To the North Island no doubt, it would give some pain and temporary inconvenience, but to the sound brother it was imperatively necessary that a cure should be effected. If the Government were asked why they should bring down a barren resolution that might not bear fruit, why not bring down a bill at once ? If they had done so, the hon members would have found in that still greater cause of objection. He declined the acceptance, and notably of the proof of the figures adduced by the hon member for Taieri. He denied that there could not be better local machinery than Provincialism, and because he thought a better could be made that was the reason he voted for the resolution. And if, when the bill was brought down, it did not come up to his idea of the real requirements, ho would vote against it. Mr J. Sheehan said that everybody avlio could express an opinion should do so. Before giving his own he felt bound to inform the House, so far as his experience went of the gentlemen at the head of the [Government, he had shewn the utmost desire

to provide for the circumstances of Auckland up to ' the present moment of bringing down this resolution. The hon member then proceeded to prove that the resolution was brought down solely out of a ruffled temper on account of the opposition of the member for the Hutt. Why, this was tho worst form of personal Government, and no doubt the present Government was eminently personal. The Premier was head and front of the present Government — he was likewise hand and foot ; he was the Bun, the rest of the members were merely tke revolving planets. What he willed must be done. Surely in such a state of things they ought to establish a medium department, because the most awful consequences to the country might ensue if the hon gentleman happened to have the nightmare or his stomach was out of order. Some terrible and ruin-ous-like scheme might result some tine morning, after a bad night's rest. The hon member -proceeded to show how the political history of the Premier had been identified with provincialism, and referred to the declaiation of the hon member as to the large sacrifices he had made. The House could estimate these when he told them that fourteen days ago he had been shewn a card with forty-eight members names marked upon it who were pledged to vote for the resolution. If the resolution had gone for the establishment of large provinces he could have gone with it. If they had sought to join Taranaki to Auckland or Hawke's Bay to Wellington, he could approved of that as something likely to reduce provincialism from the opprobrium it was now under. He denied that the provinces of the North Island offered any obstruction to the earring out of the Public Works -policy. He could «ay ihi<i'it,was not Auckland ; it-could not be Taranaki j it ought not to be Hawke's Bay, the Superintendent of which province was the Government Agent, and doubtless received a disproportionate share of the public money. The Premier had said nothing could be done with the provinces without such aid, but ,yet the Premier's speech was filled with sop. The chief of which was the sop to the Southern members by reference to the compact of 1856, though that ought to ha\ c had no connection with the abolition. One* hon member had spoken of the North Island a» sponging on the South, and had decided that that was the case. He made bold to say that a dmy would come when the North Island would be able to make use of her magnificent landed estate now locked ujp, and she would freely open her purse to meet the needs of her Southern sister, and do it, he hoped, without making any of those insinuations which hud been disfiguring the debate.