THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Westport Times, Volume V, Issue 864, 21 September 1871, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THE EDUCATION BILL. The debate on the second reading of this bill was resumed. Mr Kelly thought it unfortunate that the provinces had been made the educational boundaries, although he did not see how it could be otherwise. He would like the measure to have been a more colonial one, but the probability was that if it had been made so, and had not utilised the provincial boundaries, it would not have been passed this session. He agreed with the member for Nelson City that the provincial boards should bo elected either by the inhabitants of the locality, or by the people at large. He also agreed with the member for the Hutt that they did not want both local committees and provincial boards. With regard to the compulsory clauses, he thought it would be unwise to pass them in their present shape, and in respect to the financial aspect of the bill, he thought it was a step in the right direction. As a colonial measure, he was disappointed . with it, because he supposed that in a colonial measure they would have provided for the education of the poorer districts of the colony, but those districts would remain entirely as they were at present. He thought both the owner and occupier should pay a share towards the education of the country. He also thought the holders of bank and mining stock should be taxed for the support of an educational system, because it would made the charges under the bill press more equally. On the whole he believed the bill was a good one, and he would sink some of his own wishes for the sake of providing a good measure. As regarded the religious training provided by the bill, he approved of it. What would have been the position of England had it not been for religious teaching ? He would support the principle of aided schools as laid down in the bill. He hoped the House, in future sessions, would make all endeavors to improve the measure where improvement was found to be necessary. Mr Bunny hailed with great pleasure the fact that the House was, for the first time, dealing • with the question of education in a practical maner. He thought that at the present time they should confine themselves to a simple, elementary education. We owed the highest debt of gratitude to those persons not of the high intellectual class who had done so much for this country, and he would provide a purely useful elementary education for the children of those men. New Zealand had had more of the high intellectual class than any other country, but they had done for the country nothing compared to what those hard-working men had done. Taking the result of their deliberations for the last seventeen years, up to the last session they had done nothing whatever of a beneficial nature for the country at large. With regard to the principles of the measure he must say that he objected to the constitution of the boards. A suggestion had been made that ladies should be elected to these boards, but they were perfectly aware that in this country the female portion of the country had too much to do. How would a man like to hear, when be came home for his dinner, that his wife had gone to the educational board. He objected also to the system of local committees. Let the educational board appoint and pay the teachers. He thought in a thinly populated country like this they might adopt, with advantage, a system of travelling school-masters. We had a large population that could not attend any school. ( Mr F ox : There is such a provision in the bill.) He was glad to hear it. He objected to the compulsory clauses, because if they attempted to compel parents to send their children they would fail to make the bill acceptable to the people; some of the children lived at such a distance that they could not by any possibility get to the schools. He did not believe in forcing upon the people a thing which they would in all likelihood come to if left to themselves. He trusted the compulsory clauses would be struck out. As regards taxation, he would like to see the legislature in all questions it took in hand deal with it absolutely once and for all. He thought the House should take upon itself to say what and how the amounts should be paid, and while on this subject he was strongly of opinion-that personal property should be included in the taxation of the bill, so as to contribute a fair share of expense of- the education of the country. They were now preparing a machinery which must follow this bill—the taxation of all descriptions of property. In the matter of religious education the Roman Catholics of the country had no desire to interfere with other denominations as to how they , should educate their children. They said " give us one portion of the taxation of the country for the benefit of our children, and we will leave you to conduct the education of your children in any way you think fit." He thought the Roman Catholics were fairly treated by the bill.. If adult education could be carried out, so be it; but he did not think it would succeed. Let them provide a simple education, and let those who desire a higher class of education pay for it. Mr Pearce thought that the bill would pass its second reading, possibly without a dissentient voice. He would touch upon only one principle in the measure—the assistance to denominational schools throughout the country. He believed the aided school clauses would or should be

carried. He approved of the giving of religious education in schools, because they well knew wheu\it was left to parents it was, in a great many cases, entirely neglected. He knew the denominational schools" would not be for so u:e years established with success, except in large centres of population, and he thought the Government were wise in availing themselves of the advantages of those schools already in existence. He thought it would not be right to ignore the prayer of. the petitions .which had been presented to the House bearing on the subject of denominational teaching. He advised the House not to go into committee with the foregone determination to alter if not to destroy some of its most vital parts. Mr Buckland said his opinions were opposed to a great many members who had spoken. The great bone of contention was whether they should have a secular or a denominational teach, ing. He did not think it right that they should endeavour to force upon the district from which he came a system which they had already abolished. He thought the provincial Bystems were the very thing for them to adopt on this subject. So far as raising money he would at all times deprive provincial institutions of the power to levy rates for raising money ; that was a power which would be reserved for the House. It would have been better for the colony if they had always done so. He hoped the Wellington Education Bill, introduced by the hon. member for the Hutt, would pass. Although the hon. member feared that it would, as those whom the gods love, die young. He hoped that it would not be so, but that the bill would pass through the House, and have a long life. The inhabitants of "Wellington were entitled to any system which they thought best for them, and so were other districts. He agreed with Mr Bryce that the bill was an expensive and complicated one. To a certain extent he agreed with Mr Haughton, that it would be unwise to over-educate the people, because it might have the effect of unfitting men for labour. He thought it was a matter of time only when cooperation would supersede the system of paying wages. He would not teach all the children the arts and sciences, but he would educate them—develope their brain, because he believed by doing so they were developing the resources of the country. The examples of Broadhead, and the Communism of Franc;;, proved that a new system of education—an entirely new system of things must be brought about; the labouring classes were not satisfied with their present position. Mr Andrew wished to say a few words on the religious question. Objections had been made to the denominational system on account of increased expense, but there was no reason why the expense should be greater than a secular one. He thought the denominational system of schools would prove most efficient, because it would create a healthy rivalry with the secular schools. With regard to the reading of the scriptures he would prefer to see it optional rather than obligatory. He thought the State would do well to avail itself of those schools in which religion or morality are taught. He would say a few words on model and high schools. There were many who could not avail themselves of the primary or public schools, and yet had not sufficient means to pay for admittance to the high schools. The hon. member for Wakatipu had asserted that they might by making them a highly educated population, make them a nation of educated paupers, and that there would be no one to clean tha boots. He thought that if they educated the people they might safely leave such a people to find a means of emancipation from anything like paupery. We were now incurring immense liabilities ; and it might possibly happen that our anticipations of last year might not be realised. However that might be, they were about to leave to future generations something that would be very much more valuable than any kind of property—a good means of obtaining education.

Mr M'Leod was of opinion that the bill was too complicated. They should provide merely elementary education. He thought it would be as well to use the old machinery for taxing people — by means of the customs, &c. Our experience of Provincial Governments was that they had done their work — had run their course —and should be abolished. He thought they had not arrived at that period when they could dispense -with the clergy. We owed much to them in the past, and we would be likely to owe much to them in thejfuture. He had been in favour of a secular system, but he thought the Premier could not do better than follow the Otago and Nelson systems—particularly the latter. One thing had been overlooked, namely, that the very best systems of teaching that had ever existed were religious systems—in all ages. The Catholics had done good work; if nowhere else certainly in this country. They owed a great deal to the Vicar-General of Auckland ; no one in this country had done so mnch for the education of the country, and particularly the northern part of the colony. Instead of denouncing the education of the Catholics we might point with pride and exultation to the education taught by the ladies of Auckland, and much of the results were chiefly owing to tho Sisters of Mercy. He must not forget, either, the efforts of Bishop Belwyn. He mentioned these matters

io prove the benefits of religious education. He hoped there would be no compulsory clauses in the bill, when it left the hands of the committee. Mv Wood thought the Government were entitled to the congratulations they had received having launched the measure in bo successful a manner as to ensure no opposition to its second reading. He would also congratulate the House for having entirely abstained from making the discussion of the bill a party one. Last session he would have opposed such a measure, 'because at that time he thought the provinces the proper parties to undertake such matters; but times were changed, The legislation of last session had taken away the functions of the provinces, and their occupation was now entirely gone. He only now hoped that the new order of things would prove as successful as had the provincial system. That system had made the roads and bridges of the •colony, and he could only hope that the new colonial policy would prove -as successful. An hon member who professed to have paid a great deal of attention to the bill, told them that this was not an "expensive bill, but if it were not a sham—if it were intended to carry it out —it could be nothing •else but an expensive machinery. He believed in a purely secular system. He thought they had n© right to comrpel the people to dip their hands into, their pockets to maintain this expensive, this luxurious system of education. The compulsory system might do very well for thickly populated districts, but •it would not do for thinly peopled districts. In such districts to compel' -settlers 'to send their children dis-| ■ tances over bush roads was preposterous. They would not only require the •officers appointed under the bill; they would require a staff of nursemaids in A point not touched upon ~hj other members was the power given the Governor. If they wpre to give the Governor those great powers -conferred by the bill, they might as Tvell shorten it at once, and give the power to appoint officers •and 'determine their salaries. He 'thought that the power should be reserved by the House. He would vote for the second reading, but he hoped that it would come out of the comanittee with the machinery so much reduced as to give a system pf education of that simple kind which everybody must understand, and which would entirely relieve the Hous'e of •-any responsibility . with respect to -religion and the reading of the Holy •Scripture. Mr Mervyn said at the time of his ■election to the House there was no discussion on the matter of education; "the Gtago system met all the require--ments of that province, but since that ■a different state of things had arisen—=a considerable amount of opposition had grown up to the Otago system. He could tell the House that he would v vote for no measure that would destroy that system. He objected, like ■a good many other members, to the •constitution Of the boards. The objections to the iprovincial boundaries he thought could not hold water. He thought the provincial system of education would do much more for the -education of the people than any other. He thought the existence of the large •educational reserves would prove an insuperable objection to the employ-ment-of any other than the provincial -system of boundaries. The hon. member for the Hutt, and other members, ■were utterly opposed to the bill in respect to the -school committees, but he did not agree with that opinion. He "believed that was the best feature in the '•bill. If they wanted to make the system successful they must secure the hearty co-operation of the people in T the working of the bill. He regretted that the Government should have attempted to-establish different systems <of religion, and thought it better to •eliminate from the bill all religious He found in the "Wellington Education Bill a clause which they might very well copy. He had no objection to religious instruction being imparted if it were imparted entirely separate from the instruction which •ought to be imparted in schools. If 'the denominational system were established we would simply be educating and bringing up the youth of the colony in a very improper way. We "would be bringing up one portion one way, and another portion another. He would like to see the youth of the colony moulded into one, if we were ever to become a great nation. The ■Colonial Secretary had stated that the bill solved the difficulty. He believed it was enly the creation of the difficulty. Immediately this bill became law the Presbyterian element in his •district, being very strong, would •establish denominational schools in his district, where there were very few Catholic children, and they would be obliged to go to these schools. The Government ought to take the example of the history of the past. The system of Ireland had been found to be successful, where no religious difficulty had sprung up, except on the part of the bigots of England. He would simply say that if the bill passed this session—he did not think it would —he hoped it would place the inhabitants ©f the country on one common footing, and that it would impart/a sound system of education throughout the colony. .: v . Mr Fox moved the adjournment of the debate on the understanding that when it was resumed he should make his reply. He did not intend.to make • any lengthened statement on that occasion. The Government would be prepared to adopt many of the sug-

gestiona offered; he would make known those portions of the bill the Government would be bound to maintain, and those which they would waive. He thought the course he proposed to take would meet the wishes of the House. He would propose the adjournment of the debate till next Thursday, when h© would make a few remarks in reply, and would propose, immediately, that the House should go into committee, so that it would make considerable progress before the close of the day's proceedings.