LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Westport Times, Volume IV, Issue 697, 13 August 1870, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Friday, July 29. provincial institutions. After a short discussion in the Legislative Council, Colonel Whitmore's motion . that the time had arrived for a radical alteration of the provincial institutions of the Colony, and that Superintendents should cease to be political officers, was adjourned. In speaking to the question the Hon. Mr Holmes moved, by way of amendment, •' That, in order to the more effective and economical administration o the various Provincial Governments, it is expedient:— " 1. That the legislative functions of the Superintendents and Provincial Couucils should be accurately defined, and that such functions should be confined exclusively to subjects of purely local concern. " 2. That the system of responsible government, which has been adopted in several of the Provinces, is unnecessarily complex and expensive, and is to a great extent incompatible with an effective head. "3. That the practical administration of provincial aftaii-s should be conducted by the respective Superintendents personally; such Superintendents being held directly responsible, not only to the Government, but to the respective Provincial Councils. " 4 That the attention of the Government be called to the foregoing resolutions, with a view of, during the recess, framing such measures as may give practical effect to the same. The Hon. Colonel Whitinore said : We have recently seen, in the financial statement which has been laid before ns, that a great scheme of colonisation is about to be undertaken by the Colonial Government, and that it purposes to charge itself with the execution of large public works. Hitherto these ha"e been considered the specialities of Provincial Governments. We have seen, moreover, that in the Province, of Auckland the police have been handed over to the General Government ; that, iu fact, there has, in that Province, been an admission that an advantage is to be obtained by the control of the police resting with a central authority. Thus the subjects for provincial legislation are becoming rapidly fewer. At this time we have telegraphic communication established throughout the country, and, with one exception every Province is in telegraphic communication with the seat of Government. We are about to have railways constructed, in order to complete our inland communication, and we have already a sufficiency of steamers to secure a rapid coastal communication between one Province and another. Thus, another argument for these institutions is no longer applicable to the Colony. The system has already broken down. The Provinces of Taranaki, Marlborough, and Southland cannot longer continue to exist as provinces, with their separate governments and legislatures. Hawke's Bay and Wellington have small means of carrying on, although, by the assistance of the General Government, they may be able to maintain the skeleton framework of a money-spending government, without returning any advantage for what they have received. I ask whether it is intended to continue to maintain these embarrassed I

and stagnant provinces by funds raised by the General Government, and to keep them up merely for the sake of maintaining Executive Governments, without anything to execute, which are unable to construct public works, and which have abaudoned all those occupations which they were originally designed to carry out, for next to nothing is now being done in the great majority of the provinces to promote the colonisation of the country. The provinces actually spend, and depend largely upon, those sums of money which are handed over%o them by the Parliament of the country ; but that Parliament cannot look to a corporate body suc'i as the Council of a province for the due expenditure of that money ; it cannot look to the Superintendent, who is not under its control, as a responsible person; and, practically speaking, the whole portion of the consolidated revenue which is handed over to the Provinces, is spent entirely without any responsibility •whatever, ;is far as the Parliament of the country is concerned. This brings me to speak of the non-political character which I think the Superintendents of the provinces ought to hold. Whatever might have been the grounds upon which the Superintendent was originally made independent of the Government of the country, I think the time has come when he should not only be made directly responsible to Parliament and to the Government of the country, but that it should be in the power of Parliament to see that the best man, and one that would work harmoniously with the government of the day, occupied that position. It is quite evident that, elected by the people, and permitted to be a political personage, the Superintendent would often be found in opposition to the government of the day, and could not act with propriety as their delegate in administering the departments of the General Government. I say, by the first resolution, that administration only should remain with the Provincial Governments, and it must be evident that the control of the General Government officers ought to be in the hands of a General Government servant, who will be sure to work harmoniously with the responsible government of the day. The Hon Mr Holmes, in moving the amendment, objected to the motion as not of a sufficiently comprehensive character. He agreed with the honorable member's remarks as to the present system of legislation by Provincial Councils ceasing. He did not agree with the mover of the resolution with respect to the nomination of Superintendents, but he thought it would be better if their services were limited to the extent indicated in the amendment, and that they should be accountable both to the Colonial Government and to those who elect them The Hon Captain' IVaser seconded thb adoption of the amendment. The Hon Mr O'Neill remarked that the motion and the amendment had opened up a very large and important question, and that, before the house could arrive at a satisfactory conclusion, it was advisable that honorable members should hove an evening toconsider it. With the permission of the Council, he would move that the further consideration of the matter should be adjourned to an early day next week. The Hon Mr Seymour could not see, if the functions of Provincial Legislatures were reduced merely to the framing of by-laws, of what use they would be ; because the initiation of these small local matters which affect Eoad Boards and Municipal Councils might be undertaken by those bodies themselves. He should like to see the Koad Boards and Municipal Councils legislate in regard to those matters connected with the discharge of their particular functions, and that the General Government should undertake all those general functions of Government which are embodied in the questions affect ing education, police, gaols, hospitals, harbors, lunatic asylums, and so forth; when that takes place, it will be found that, without making any organic and sudden changes, provincial institutions will quietlv fall aside. The Hon Mr Gisborne.—l hope the House will acquit me of any intention of any disrespect to the Council or to the honorable gentlemen who moved the motion and amendment, if I decline to enter the vast fip.ld of controversy which has been opened up. The only observations I will make in respect to the resolutions, will relate to them as inopportune at the present time, being, as they are, abstract motions, which will probably have no practical result. The honorable and gallant gentleman in his remarks, said that the tendency had been, the last three or four years, to unify the Colony, and that many measures had been passed which would have that effect. Will it not bo better to discuss the subject measure by measure, than to turn the Council into a sort of debating club on an abstract principle ? It will not further the object in view, but will have a contrary cffoct, because we must remember that we are on the eve of a general election, and the matters involved in the motion and amendment rosolvo themselves into a quostion of finance and'representation. Now, I nsk tho Council what subjects aro moro fit than thoso aro for the consideration of tho people themselves? There is also a probability that, if tho motion is passed, it will havo tho effect of rousing political excitement, and a strong fooling in favor of tho Pro-

vinces against which the motion and the amendment are directed. Again, I am not certain if, at the hustings, the adoption of the course proposed would not have the effect of making some persona retaliate by saying the time had come for a radical alteration in connection with the constitution of the Legislative Council. The position oeeupied by this Council is a peculiar one. We are nominated by the Crown ; we Btand aloof from and above those party political contests engaged in by representative bodies, and although I am quite aware that this Council is competent to discuss any subject, I think it is a happy usage which, practically, has confined the exercise of its functions to the calm discussion of measures brought before it, and has excluded the initiation of measures peculiarly relating to finance and representation,—-measures which are within the special province of the people and their representatives. I thiuk, therefore, that we should sacrifice reputation and influence if we rush headlong into political politics on motions like these. I would say, with reference to the first motion, that it is extremely vague in its character, and would be no parctical guide to the Government regarding measures which might require to beenacted. With reference to the amendment, it is, no doubt more practical in its character, but it is open to the objection that it embraces a question that will be well ventilated during the general election which will soon take place, and will have the effect of rousing bitter party feelings, which might not otherwise arise. The Legislative Council should be satisfied in knowing that no constitutional change can legally take place without its concurrence, every measure must come before this Council, and must have its concurrence before it becomes law ; and I think that the most statesmanlike, the most prudent and wise course, would be to consider these measures in the manner which I have indicated, and not lose our strength by dealing with mere abstract resolutions. In making these observations I feel that this Council is not a Council of parties ; the Government have no party, neither am I aware that there is any opposition party. The members of the Government express their views on various questions which arise, and they must be taken for what they are worth by the Council. If the debate is proceeded with, I hope honorable members, who have been ia this House longer than myself will give their views on the remarks which have been already made, and if they agree with what I have said, I will advise the honorable and gallant gentleman (Colonel Whitmore), and the honorable member (Mr Holmes) to withdraw the motion and the amendment, and leave the Council to deal with each practical measure as it comes before us. The Hon. Mr Holmes said he considered it would be better to withdraw the motion, and to leave the matter to be dealt with by the members of the next Parliament, especially as a general election was so close at hand. He would withdraw bis amendment, provided the honorable and gallant gentleman (Colonel Whitmore) would withdraw his motion. Motion for adjournment withdrawn. The Hon. Colonel Whitmore, C.M.G., said he did not think that the Council should think it necessary to withdraw the motion merely because the honorable member (Mr Gisborne) threatened them. Although he did not decline to withdraw it, he thought it would be much more preferable to adjourn the debate for the present. The Hon. Mr Gisborne disclaimed any intention to threaten honorable members. If the honorable and gallant gentleman was running into a quagmire, or over a precipice, and he (Mr Gisborne) pointed out the probable result, could he be accused of holding out threats ? The Hon. Mr M'Lean moved the adjournment of the dabate. Question put, " That the debate be now adjourned," upon which a division was called for, with the following results: Ayes 16 Noes 15 Majority for 1 '