NELSON PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Westport Times, Volume IV, Issue 672, 16 June 1870, Page 2

NELSON PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Monday, Mat 30. the executive government bill. The Provincial Solicitor briefly moved the second reading of this bill. The Council then went into committee on the bill. A series of amendments standing on the notice paper were, with one or two additions, substantially adopted, either by large majorities or without a division. There was a good deal of debate on various points ; but the bill, as passed through committee, fairly reflected the propositions in the reports of the committee, twice adopted by the Council, and twice submitted to bis Honor the Superintendent. The following ai*e the clauses relating to the formation of the Executive:— There shall be an Executive Council for the Province, whose duty it shall bo to advise the Superintendent on all questions relating to the administration and finance of the Province, and the Superintendent shall cause to be kept a record of the official acts and proceedings of the Executive Council. It shall be competent to any member of the Executive Council to propose for discussion any question connected with the administration and finance of the Province, and to have recorded on the minutes of such Council his opinion and advice on such question. The Superintendent shall be President of such Council, and shall have a deliberative as well as a casting vote. The Provincial Secretary, the Provincial Solicitor, and the Provincial Treasurer shall be members of the Executive Council.

The Superintendent ohall also appoint two other persons to he members of the Executive Council, one of whom shall therein represent the interests of the Goldfields, and shall also have a seat in the Provincial Council.

The Superintendent and Executive Council shall prescribe all such rules as may appear necessary for the calling and holding of meetings of the Executive Council, and for conducting the business thereof. Two members of the Executive Council with the Superintendent, shall form, a quorum. Not more than four, and not less than three of the said five members of the Executive Council, shall have seats in the Provincial Council, and three of the said members who shall be in the Provincial Council shall be removable on the passing of a vote to that effect by the Provincial Council. Provided always that the Provincial Secretary shall not be among those who shall be so removable. No member of the Provincial Council, except members of the Executive Council, hold any office of emolument under the Provincial Government, nor shall any member of the Executive or Provincial Council become contractors under the -tiovinciiil Government.

Mr Shephard spoke of the frequent reference to the work of the Superintendent, and to alleged expectations that he should do the work of this and that official. This he objected to ; the Superintendent ought to be an acute man of business, with a practical mind; giving a general and intelligent superintendence, as his name imports, to all the departments j not to run all over the Province, but still making himself acquainted personally with the principal places. He also, on the clause for preventing members of Council, or members of the Executive from becoming contractors under the Provincial Government, expressed himself strongly ; pointing out the clear necessity for the clause, and declaring that if such contracts were allowed, it would open a door for the vilest species of log-rolling, and might lead the Council into becoming a body of jobbers. (Hear, hear.) The Provincial Solicitor opposed the A.ct coming into operation until June. Mr Shephard made some pointed remarks on the subject, referring to the necessity for its immediate operation ; and pointing out that some great ,threats had been set afloat, to the effect that if the Council persisted in forcing on this bill, or in opposing the Government, in fact, if the Council determined to exercise its judgment and insist on its rights, the Government or the Superintendent were prepared to dissolve the Council, at least to apply to the Governor for such dissolution. He could only say that he had not the slightest objection to such a course. (Hear, hear.) He was willing to go back to his constituents, and so were most of the members —(hear, hear) —and would assure the Government that there would be returned more members who would not be less ready than he to make a stand for the rights of the Council, and the means of exercising them. (Hear, hear.)

The Provincial Solictor and the Provincial Secretary strongly denied that any such threats had been either made or entertained.

Tuesday, May 31. last year's provincial council act. Mr O'Conor moved, " That a select committee be appointed to consider and report upon the working of the ' Provincial Council Act," passed last session ; such committee to consist of the Speaker, and Messrs Luckie, Shephard, Donne, Reid, Gibbs, Collins, Macmahon, and the mover." He said it was desirable to see what effect had been produced by the reduction of the numbers, and the re-arrangement of seats. —Agreed to. UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE. Th' Provincial Secretary moved, " That an address from this Council, signed by the Speaker, be transmitted to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to send to this Council a recommendation to grant a sum of money out of the Provincial revenue to meet the unauthorised expenditure during the year ended 31st March, 1870, amounting to the sum of £G2 10s." He said that the sum of £37 10s, which he understood the Council was prepared to accept as being the sum actually overpaid to Dent, had been paid into the Bank by the Superintendent, and this, he understood, would satisfy the Council.

Mr C. Kelling seconded the motion. Mr Gibbs and Mr Baigent opposed it, and some five or six members left the Council chamber.

Mr O'Conor also opposed the motion. He did so because it was understood that his Honor would send down a message on the subject expressive of regret, and without that he should not vote for the motion.

The Provincial Secretary said he had been misled, for he clearly understood that if this sum were paid by the Superintendent the vote would be passed. (No.) He would withdraw the motion rather than put it to the Council, which was placing the Superintendent in a most unfair position. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. THE ESTIMATES. The Provincial Secretary moved, without remark, "That the Council resolve itself into committee on the Estimates." Mr Macmahon seconded the motion.

Mr Donne really hoped the Council would not go into committee on the intimates, and that the Provincial Secretary would not press this motion. The Executive Bill was still pending, and there was a motion of " want of confidence" still hanging over the Executive. He was not prompted by any factious opposition, but he could not close his eyes to what had occurred in this chamber, or to the fact that the Government did not have the confidence of the Council ; that virtually a vole of " no-confidence " was passed a few weeks ago on the motion of the member for the city (Mr Luckie). [The Provincial Secretary : No.] Virtually passed, sir, as had been shown, for a stranger voted, and on the previous question; and had the motion gone to a division, there would have been a clear majority.— Hear, hear.) It would, in these circumstances, be highly indecorous and improper to press on the Estimates until other matters were cleared out of the way. The Executive, this Council believed, required to be remodelled, and the Estimates reconsidered in some points. He considered that the Provincial Solicitor, in opposing the Executive Bill as he did, was not representing the Superintendent. Of course he (Mr Donne) was not in the confidence of the Superintendent, but from the facts which had come from

his Honor through the deputation, and his expressed desire of meeting the wishes of this Council, he could not help drawing that conclusion.—(Hear, hear). The Provincial Secretary did not wish to press the Estimates. He only desired to know what the Council wished to be done ; he should not press the motion if it was not wanted; but he could not understand the Council. He most certaiuly was misled by members of the Council in other matters, and he had himself misled the Superintendent, who had the money sent into the Treasury under the expectation expressed by members of Council that on the money being paid the vote would be passed.—(No, no).

Mr Luckie hoped the Estimates would not be pressed at present. A s for the other matter referred to, and on the moving of which he and other members had left the Chamber, he had to say that in these circumstances while not desirous of voting against the motion, he could not yet vote for it. The Provincial Secretary must have misled himself Hh, like other members, very frankly, both in this Council and privately had informed the Provincial Secretary that it was due to the Council, whose judgment had been repeatedly impugned and insulted by the Superintendent, who, as had been said, had boasted about doing this same thing again, it was due to the Council that some reparation should be made. There was no desire to force the Superintendent to pay the line incurred under the Audit Act, or the costs of an action, and it had been distinctly stated in the Council that if the Superintendent would state to the Council that he had paid the smaller sum, and regretted the irregularity, the vote would have been passed without dissent..—(Hear, hear.) That was the position, and if the Superintendent had been well advised, that position, he believed, he would have taken.—(Hear, hear). The Provincial Secretary withdrew the motion.

"Wednesday, June 1. fencing old cemetery at charleston. Mr Donne moved, " That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to place upon the Supplementary Esti. mates the sum of £IOO, for the purpose of securely fencing the Charleston Roman Catholic Cemetery." After a brief debate the motion was negatived, on the understanding that provision should be made by increasing a certain item in the Estimates for the object Mr Donne sought to accomplish.

THE STANDING ORDERS. Mr Donne moved that the Council adopt these orders, congratulating the Council that a long and somewhat tedious operation had been carried through. The Standing orders were then formally adopted. THE EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENT BILL. Mr O'Conor moved the suspension of Standing Orders, in order to enable him to move, in committee, an amendment on this bill, to the effect that the Superintendent should have only a casting vote in the Executive Council. There was no seconder for the motion, whic:i consequently dropped. Mr Luckie proposed the third reading of the Executive Government Bill. He had hoped that a work well begun, fully discussed, and fairly considered in committee and in the Council, would have been completed by the hon. member (the Provincial Solicitor) who Drought in this bill. But he and others were disappointed in this expectation. The bantling was disowned by its putative parent, and, in this extremity, it had been adopted by him in the belief that it deserved, and would receive at the hands of others, much better treatment. He could not discover what reasonable objection the Provincial Solicitor could have to pro. ceedmg with the bill. His opinion was certainly not that of his Honor, who said, " I am not convinced that such an arrangement will work, but, in deference to the wishes of the Council, I agree, and shall send down a bill based on these resolutions." After possing through the hands of the Solicitor, the bill did not come down according to the rsolutions of the Council; but, in its amended form, it was simply an expansion of the resolutions, and he trusted the Couucil would see that no more was being asked than the Superintendent had been willing to grant. The Provincial Solicitor defended himself from what he termed the attack Mr Luckie made on him for not bringing on the third reading of the bill. The bill had been drawn as near as possible in accordance with the resolutions of the Council, and it was only on one point that was omitted, because he did not understand it. That was the point respecting a member to represent the Goldfields in the Executive, of which he asked an explanation from the hon. member, but he could not state what he wanted, and he (the Provincial Solicitor) could not therefore embody it. Mr Luckie rose to explain. He had said, what the Provincial Solicitor knew, that the Council wished a person in the Executive who would therein represent goldfields' interests, and he added that he could not put that language in sufficiently definite legal phraseology, but left that to the learned gentleman's experience. Certainly, every member of the Council knew what was meant, and legal ex-

Eerience ought to do the rest. (Hear, ear.)

The Provincial Solicitor continued to say that he did not approve of the bill, and therefore he would not propose its third reading. However, the Council, at least a majority of it, clearly wished to have the bill, and it should have a trial, and a fair trial. (Hear, hear, from Mr Luckie.) The Provincial Secretary did not wish to be silent on the passing of this bill. He did not approve of it, and felt convinced it would not work. It would produce a great deal of circumlocution, and would delay public business by the necessity of calling frequent meetings of the Executive. Mr Shephard supported the third reading. He would divest the ques tion, and he believed his friends who had supported this bill were divested of all personal feeling, to which so much unnecessary personal allusion bad been made. The bill as it stood differed very little from the Superintendent's message, No. 1. It in no degree attempted to deprive him of any reasonable powers. The Super r intendent offered two members of the Executive to be chosen by the Council, and further asked that if that concession did not satisfy the Council he should be glad to know what would do so. While, therefore, the Council did as the Superintendent had desired, it also asked for a little more power, but at the same time it conceded something to the Superintendent. He had offered to appoint two responsible members to be selected by the Council ; the Council asked for three to be selected by the Superintendent himself, thus placing the power of choice where it should constitutionally be, in his Honor's hands. (Hear, hear.) Mr Eeid said that such opinions as he bad upon the subject of the bill coincided fully with those expressed by Mr Shephard. If he had pledged himself to bis constituency on any subject it was upon this subject of importing into the constitution of the Executive the element of responsibility. In this subject there was a lively interest taken on the West Coast, and it was only from respect for the advice of others, who wished him not to be precipitate in agitating a subject upon which there was divided feeling, that he had not at an earlier stage in the session moved in the matter of making the Executive a fully responsible one. The third reading of a bill was not the time to enlarge upon its principle or its objects, and he did not mean then to illustrate the evils of their hitherto irresponsible form of government, or the probable advantages of the opposite. The occurrences of that session, and the circumstance of such a change as they were now discussing being suggested by the Superintendent, sufficiently showed that in the existing form of government there was a faultiness, and that for it some other should be substituted. He confessed that the bill, as proposed to be passed, was only a compromise, but it was the result of a fair consultation of the feelings of all in the Council, and he accepted it as a compromise, and as the judgment of the majority. He had heard no grounds given for the belief that it was a bill that was unworkable. He thought he had better reason for believing that it would prove workable, if there was a disposition to work it on the part of those by whom it should be worked. It at least deserved a trial, and if, upon trial, it was a failure, its failure would be due to its incompleteness—not to its recognition of the well-known principle that the Deliberative and Executive powers, in every constitution, should continually influence and act upon each other. He did not deny that a comparatively inactive or slow-going agricultural country, such as Nelson proper, might be governed by an unaltered and unalterable body, and governed sufficiently well for a long series of years; but it was the dictum of greater men than their Council could boast of, that if a country were a progressive, eager, changing one, soon such a body would either cramp improvement, or be destroyed itself. He believed the goldfields to possess the latter character, and that such would be the fate of the Council and the Executive, if they were maintained only in their present fixed form. He repudiated the idea that it was their object, or should be their object to circumscribe the power of the Superintendent, or to limit his action. Instead of weakening him, the altered form of Government should be a source of strength to him, and of livelier action in the interests of the Province. Neither would it derogate from the position or the influence of the members of the Executive. He could quite appreciate the instinctive dread which the present members of the Executive had of the contemplated change. Their feelings were due, he believed, not to the spirit of obstinacy which rejects all improvement, but to a natural and excusable prejudice or conservatism which was the result of many years' use and experience of a particular form of Government. (Hear, hear.) Mr Collins objected to the bill, first on the ground that it would require a new member of the Executive, who should be a paid member, which would be putting our hands into the people's pockets, and this was objectional. He could not conscientiously vote for this bill. He concluded by moving that the bill be read this day six months. Mr Gibbs seconded the motion by Mr Collins. The resolutions of the select Committee (which he opposed) Had been frequently referred to,

especially that part of them which said that one at least of the three members of the Executive, removable by an adverse vote of the Council, should represent the goldfields. As far as that went, he (Mr Gibbs) saw no particular objection to a member of the Executive making it his especial business to consider the mining interest, but that was different to a paid goldfields' secretary, which, if this bill were passed, they were going to appoint. [Cries of " No, no."] "Well, he would say if it were not secretary it was perhaps commissioner, but it was of little consequence what this gentleman was called ; he would have a large salary and travelling expenses, in addition to which there would be either one or two other paid members of the Executive, who would be removable by an adverse vote of the Council. He would ask hon. members to look round that room, and say whether there were any of them likely to be so especially fitted for this office of goldfields secretary, that it was probable they would pprforin the duties to the satisfaction of all.

Mr E. Kelling said he saw no reasons for the objections given by the last two speakers. The Council and the committee clearly understood that the member of the Executive, who should represent the goldfields, ought to be a paid officer, but that certain allocations of existing offices would prevent any material increase of expenditure. That was the meaning of the Committee, and the full understanding of the Council. (Hear, hear.) Mr O'Conor, in a speech of some length, argued against the motion. The main point in his argument was that, as it did not give full responsible government, it left too much power to the Superintendent. He wished to see at least the deliberative vote taken from the Superintendent, and rather than accept this bill he would be better pleased to see the present state of things continue, and the Superintendent remain as be is now. As matters stood it would be impossible for "any member of,the goldfields either to support the Government under this bill, or to expect that a Goldfields' Secretary could be of any service while a member of such Executive. He would advocate the continuance of the present system rather than this bill, which he felt bound to vote against on the third reading.

Mr Donne said there was a curt and expressive maxim, "Time tries all." It was a maxim which was particularly applicable to politicians, and with some politicians it seemed to take very little time to try them. If an apt illustration of this could anywhere be found, it could be found in the case of the hon. member who had just spoken. Erom his tone and manner, and from the array of common-place platitudes which he had uttered, it would seem as if the hon. member was afraid of finding himself out in the cold under a new Executive Act. It had, however, been said from the beginning of the discussion of this subject that the Superintendent should have the power of selecting from as large an area as possible, and he desired, on that point as well as others, that the hon member should confine himself to his own opinions, without touching on the opinion of others. With regard to the Provincial Solicitor, he conceived it was his duty to advise the Superintendent on matters of law ; and, had he shown that there were defects of a technical kind in this bill, he could have appreciated his position ; but, as the bill represented substantially what the Superintendent proposed, what a committee agreed upon, and what the Council confirmed, they were fairly entitled to have expected very different action on the part of the Solicitor. It was perfectly startling to find a member of the Government opposing a bill which they had themselves introduced. The only excuse which was given—and it was an assertion which had no foundation in fact—was that the carrying out of the act would materially increase the cost of Government. He was convinced that the very reverse would be the fact, and he believed that, had the report of the committee of enquiry into the miscellaneous expenditure been then upon the table, there would not have been the slightest difficulty in passing this bill by an OTerwhelming majority.— (Hear, hear.) He was especially surprised at a representative of the gold fields advocating the throwing out of this bill, and at such a stage of the proceedings. It was a question which had been agitated from one end of the West Coast to the other. And it had in no way been shown why the bill would not work. He contended that it would work. At any rate it deserved a trial. He would not impute motives at all, but he was more thai? surprised to find a representative of Westport, where the question originated, thus opposing the bill. Let him ! —(Laughter.) They would remember that in a particular letter Mr Kynnersley had intimated his desire to stand as a candidate for Westland North. The hon. member had acted [The Speaker thought Mr Donne was not in these remarks, speaking to the question.] He believed he was out of order, but he believed the member for Westport had exhibited absolute tergiversation on a question largely affecting the interests of the West Coast.—(Hear, hear.) By his action, the gold fields were to be thrown over; but he appealed to the sense of the Council whether the goldfields should not be specially represented in the Executive, by a member responsible to the Council for his acts, and at all times ac-

tively representing goldfields' interests. He, for one, was content to take the bill as an instalment. It contained an element of responsibility and ho hoped, for the sake of the Council's .consistency and dignity, that it would now be passed. As to the remarks of Mr Collins, with regard to the unauthorised expenditure, thev were, no doubt, exceedingly ingenious and intended to prejudice the minds of members; but the fact was well enough known that there was not an intention of the Council to refuse to pass the disputed item. It was only a question of time and method. He confessed himself to have departed from strict order by referring to the election of Westlimd North. Otherwise, he felt he had discharged his duty, be the result what it might. The Provincial Secretary intimated that he did not intend to vote on the bill.

Mr Shephard called attention to the fact that the proposal for something like responsible government came from the Superintendent first, not from the Council—(hear, hear) — aud therefore the Council had a right to expect that the Executive should support the measure. He then referred to Mr O'Conor's remarks. That hon. member, though desiring a stronger power for the Council in the Executive, now rejected what was an approach, agreed to, towards responsible government. Mr Tarrant had not intended to speak on the question, but being one of the select committee appointed to consider his Honor's message, and having also moved the addition of an important proposal to a resolution put on the notice paper by the present mover, on the second reading, to the effect that the Golclfield's Secretary, or the person who represented the goldfields in the Executive, should have a seat in the Council, he found it necessary to say a few words. When he first left the room to go on that committee, and consider the resolution of the Council, referring the message No. 10 to the committee, he had thought that it was not intended or expected that we should have a really responsible government, but that" the Government should go on much in the same way as at present, but with certain necessary alterations. Some, however, in the committee were in favor of responsible government in its entirety. Well, these latter conceded some points, as did the others, with the view of meeting the wishes of his Honor the Superintendent, as stated in his message. That message very clearly laid down certain proposals. One paragraph said : "The Superintendent is convinced that a complete system of responsible Government, although it is more or less imperfectly carried out in some of the larger Provinces of the Colony, would, if applied to the comparatively small affairs of this Province, be both costly and insufficient."

There was a desire to meet half-way, and then came his Honor's next paragraph in the message, in which he said:

" But the Superintendent believes that some approach to that system may be made in a manner to secure more cordial relations between the Council and the elected head of the Province, and at the same time to promote a more satisfactory understanding between the Goldfields and the more settled Districts."

(Hear, hear.) This seemed to he what the bill really sought to accomplish, and it was in agreement with the resolutions of the committee and the Council, and therefore he felt bound to support the third reading. Indeed, it would be unwise, and childish to throw out the bill. After discussing it, amending, and passing it through committee, to throw it out would be to make themselves equal to children, who made houses of cards only to throw them down with a touch. (Hear, hear.) Mr Luckie replied at some length. He was sorry to find that one hon. member—Mr O'Conor—within a few short weeks had suffered such a sad change of opinion on this subject. He thought Mr O'Conor could be convicted out of his own mouth of a violent alteration of his views. (Mr Luckie proceeded to read from Mr O'Conor's speech on the no-confi lence motion, until Mr Kelling ro>e to order.) He repeated that the bill was an embodiment of his Honor's wishes not less than the original proposition, but a little more, and that little scarcely worthy of the name. On the question being put, a division was called for by Mr Collins, and the following was the result:—Ayes, 10, Mr Luckie, Mr F. Kelling, Mr Donne, Mr Shephard, Mr Eeid, Mr Mackley, Mr Tarrant, Mr Macmahon, Mr Baigent, Mr Wastney; Noes, 4, Mr Collins, Mr C. Kelling, Mr O'Conor, Mr Gibbs. The Provincial Solicitor declined to vote, and the Provincial Secretary was absent.

Majority for the motion, 6. The Bill was then read a third time and passed.