MASTERTON DEBATING SOCIETY.

Wairarapa Daily Times, Volume 4, Issue 1168, 2 September 1882, Page 2

MASTERTON DEBATING SOCIETY.

The Society met last evening for the die.cussion of the Borough loan question,* and there was an unprecedented attend-' anoe of both members and the publio. Mr Grundy, the president, occupied the ohair, and the new arrangements for-the, conduct of the business worked jjmoothiy and well. Mr.Payton, in proposing a loan for the Borough of Masterton, claimed that borpowing.was profitable as long as it was to a large extent'r.in; more advanced in million in videiiMasterton he wUK ■ £200,000 worth of on whioh there was at feast £IOO,OOO borrowed, it wag absurd to be afraid to borrow jour thousand pound? for, street: making, rtghen it was rememberedjh'owiddpehdent the valu. of household propertyl was on good roads, He proposed to I borrow r 53,300, the amount recommerideld by the BoAiighk)amihittee. ; The Borough rates could be all applied to road making, and he proposed that one third of them should be set asidejor street maintenance, and the balance applied to interest and sinking fund on loan and the constrijotioii of new works. In fourteen years £350 per ,annum:<wmild ..extinguish the debt, and would leave a balance'oui of the rates available, for now, works. He made hia 1 statement' ori- thVpresent shilling rate, which would not require to be exceeded period jKe/'named. 'that'the shilling rate' would yield every year an advanoe of ten per cent, in the total sum collected from tates by the natufr»l,,^rofrfh^ r oj the town. Assuming too, that' be spent in two years, he estimated that the sum available for new works would be; year jBl,800 ; ; second year,' £1',500; third year, 16600 j' jtot(rjh jyear, ; 67CjO.\and every- subsequent year sin'.increasing amountf-and this without exceeding -the present shilling rate. If no loan he raised it would take at least five years to complete the streets which even Or Perry admitted in he absolutely necessary His maiii. argu* ment'= in. - favor; «fj fj,loan was the progress wWlin was aboutV fie mnde in the surrounding country districts. The Roads Onnatmotion Bill would infuse 1 vitality into. Counties and. Highway Boards, the frozen mfeat 'enterpfige; wiuld raiae the price of land and double the value of stock, the rapid settlement taking place in the Forty-Mile Bush would! he enhanced by the extension of the; railway beyond Masterton. All these : things pointed to a revival of trade and prosperity whole 'eountry around about- to move on should the town stand still and let its trade drift to more enterprising: centres A paltry ,three thousand pounds would do littje for tH'e'town direotly, bnt indirectly it would be the bugle'' note to Bound an advance. It was the tide in their their affairs whioh taken at the flood would 'lead to fortune... ■--Mr '•Hogg-'admitted that there was a good deal of force in the arguments used by the opener, and if he was only convinced that borrowing was profitable, he would ohange sides. He was of the opinion that it was not so either on the. part of nations, local, -hndies, or.individualsv 'lii J Masteribtf''a -loan wits unnecessary if they only husbanded their resources: ' Let the Borough Counoil be one of the few municipalities in New iZea]and| whioh had not to hang out golden balls 'over their doors, A loan was a luxury, and the outcome of it was bankruptcy. 1 Every property in the colony was directly or iridireotly mortgaged, to .the British hond'holder, and (Tproperty 4ax;| Borrowing wai ontf ortbe greatest orirses of a your|g .colony. If the Borough was na prudent in the future as in the past it need not borrow a''shilling, It deserved credit for the roads it had made without overstepping the mark, The loan wpu);liptr°ducejnewr.officers (No). One officer would be interest, another would be sinking fund. Was it prudent to levy £350 on-themselves for. fourteen years? jMasiertnu'was well Jaid oiit;.with exceed; ingly good roads/ana had a prosperous future if they, like the pioneers, were content to wajk.in the mud and kept out of debt. The ratepayers had sent in no petitions for new roads, there had been no outside pressure, Adverting to the schedule he said he did not object to Short-street, but it seemed -a. sop to catch votes. . Other roads proposed be objected toll in unpeopled localities,- To improve a small portion of the town the Council had .thrown out ß spider's web to catch;the whole of it. j:He concluded by pomlirigjoutj! the jjbpoinj [prosperity whioh prevailed in America'till the year 1857, consequent on general borrowing, and the suffering consequent on the colilapae .of.hankie institution? in that year. (Applause) The Rev, Mr Isitt said he perhaps possessed one -qualification for makintt a lbng'^peech^he L knejviyeryi little about the subject. He was not there as a public speaker, or as an advocate for borrowing, but simply as.,a,member, of, the. Debatiip 'Society-, in which' capaoity ; lie.'took the Government side that evening. At the meetings of the Society, he had heard many things given- ai the cause of distress all over the world. At different times it had been stated to be tobacco, drinking, Irish troubles, &c.; but atjlast rthe, Opposition had fixed the matter-the cause/of 'distress all over the world was borrowing. He was surprised, however, at a business man like Mr Hogg saying a loan under any oircumfitanoes was disastrous, Buppo.se a man built : ut large faotory and exhausted the whole of his capital in stocking it, and then found that a small stream threatened to undermine .it, Would Mr Hog? say it would be disastrous to suoh a man to borrow for the purpose of saving hia property? Mr Hogg said borrowing would stop business. Were" there' not in Masterton plenty who prospered on borrowed money? (Mr Park: No.) Mr Hogg had evidently a doubt in his mind that after all the loan would be of great benefit, as he said if they borrowed they would soon see the pawnbroker's three balls hanging over the Counoil Chamber door. Now, people did not hang out three - balls unless they had money to lend—which would show the Counoil had reaped splendid results from the loan. There |were two or three reasons in * favor of a loan, and Mi Payton had touched on one of them. : Towns, like.men, must take the tide at the flood. Masterton was well established as a town; gbod country was being opened up beyond it. Carterton was not far off, and, though not

V thought much of as a rival in Masterton, was 5 held! itV high ostocra.'by the Cartatonwis ' If Maiiertbn Xwm' to be the Wellington , of tho j.Wairarapa thoy would have to | move idieitd.f>Boads were the arteries ol 1 commerce.; To'iav'fl large trade thwr must J Imveiroads. whibb ijrould carry it. If they J. hod no roads "they/could not expect a large * cmild not maintain the roads they had already made in ideceut state of repair. Mr . Hogg had spoken of the petitions to the . Highway Board, tbutjho members .of tha 1 Council were always alwut the streets, .a I ,id . instead of Bonding formal petitions to the .jOouncil, .ratepayers .were „in. the habit of, bailing them up and pitching f into them about the * . strcet'.f Me haa himself spoken to Councillors about the L street he lived in. He could not, in wet ' weather..-travol ynrcla to his .Gharoh ! without getting wet'feet and thus risking , his life. (LaUghter). What a small thins I' after all % loan was, £3OOO. -They- surely would not cripple the town for the want of ' such: a null ■ suiii. l i Mr • Hogghad taid thii loan was a bugbear. ' Well that was what the oppposition were faying to make it, but he ; i thougut'it would prove a friend jiii disguise. : (l-judapplaute). 1 r: Mr Easthope said he felt at a disadvantage coming after such able speakers as had preceeded him; /He took'a great, interest in . the question, however. It had not been '(-shown by'anyspeakor that a loan wasneces- ; sary.' Until they did sd the GWt. tide had no case. Mr Payton had, said L he would show the loan was profitable, but He had not done 9 so. He had said that £350 for 14 years would pay bfiF- £33oo,ibtit how-he made it f out, lie (the speaker) could not ; see, as, according to his, reckoning,; the interest alone 9 would be £2234. the Government, asked t them to borrow £3,000 and pay £6,000 for it s (No, and applause). They, were told there , would be a sinking fund—a sinking fun'd, » indeed;l;The fact was their loan would j actually cost'lO per cent instead of 7. ,It would be far better to have a special- rate | (No), A special rate for three years would do the work, and they would have . no interest and .sinking .fnud,, They all ' seemed to.'overlook tli/sjway out,of the diffi--0 culty, and simply assumed that the loan yps $• necessary. He wivi &uipi'ised to hear, from r ' Mr Hytoii' that all the trade depended upon , a loan, would.they lo.e the Forty-Mile.Bush t .trade if, for iustance, Woikaop, Boad were 1 not made,? Would they, lose all or only r part? Mr Payton- said "something ; about j- being a bugle c.\ll. Yes. A bugle call for I more lomb, ( -,One. r loTO alwaya followed j another. The schedule 1 did uot include r'l j the streets, and they were told that the in- , creased rate 3 would pay for these/ This idea he ridiculed. He was surprised at a business ' man like-Mr Payton advocating going into ' debt, but not at Mr Isitt. Parsons lived in ■ an atmosphere of told them I at the outset lie knew nothing' about'the i subject. Yet he rushed open mouthed at b the question. Directly ho got into tho loan "atmosphere'hiSlry'TOs "It's al loan—let ,us } have the money i" ( Applause and laughter.') j. He.(thespeaker).didnotdisapprove ofaman in business borrowing to make that business more profitable, but he did not believo in municipal borrowing. Theyborrowed money 3 simply to walk upon—to throw on ihe ' streets. People would not come to the place 5 because there were good roads, but because • rates were low. To borrow' £4OOO woulo r simply be pacing a stODe round the neck oi , the ratepayers, which would overwhelm . them. (Loud applause,) J /Mr Redman said a loan was necessary tc . complete half formed stYeets! Numbers ol j petitions were being presented tc a the Council, and people objected to pay for the .work they required, as they bad already paid rates which had been spent in other parts. To do these works either a loan 8 or a special rate was necessary. One was just the same as the other in the long run, 8 He held that the expenditure- of a loan J would increase the population and the rateae ble value of property, If thoy raised a b loan it would only, be anticipating their f expenditure and do work's at once, to the a satisfaction of the ratepayers. He con- . sidered the unfair papt of the proposal was ■ the fact that the expenditure would place a burden on the present ratepayers to the benefit of those who come after'them. He did not advocate a small loafiT It would only P irritate and not satisfy, and would not bo II worth having. He approved' ot a sufficient s sum being borrowed to do all the streets in S the borough (applause.) n Mr Kingdon said he had been selected to y speak next, but the borrowing question waf i not muoh in his line. Mr Payton had said r borrowing led to fortune; if he said j misfortune,, he • would agree with hiii. they did not want speculators in the town, they wanted settlers. Borrowing , would keep settlers away. He .idiculedthe idea of borrowing for a' 4eam engine. H< strongly opposed the pioposed borrowinj 0 scheme. " Mr MoCard'e said he felt in rather an f awkward position. He aped with the loai but not with the derails. Loan was neces i- sary to make streets which would not other r wise be made for the next 20' years, yet tht e people on them had a good' Claim for street) „ as they had paid rates for yews He did no! ,| believe in spreading the expenditure ovei U three years. The works wero urgent, anc g should be done at once. There were . times when a loan wa< nece«arj in order to supply work and keep valuablf settlers from leaving the country during . temporary ' periods' of" degression,. . . He '• thought £2500 would do the'works required, a an 1 lie would support a loan for that amount b ' Mr Rapp thought the Government side d should use their brains when they talked ol J borrowing. • How were, they going to .place e the debentures? Did thby think busmesi n men in the district were going to take 0 money out of their business to buy Borougl: j debenture's? and for what? -to construe! private streets ? He held that 5 thh 'Coiinci: n had no right to construct private streets oul ■ of ratepay era) : money (Mr, Caselbergi Hear, 1 hear.. What is a private street ?—Mr Rehall ?. One that hasno outlet). The Council should seqithat private strects'wcre well and prof perly made before taking them over. A o speculator came and bought up,five or sis ut acres, cut it nj> into, sections, shewing roads, e .SO.; ;He submitted his plan to tho Council, o who adopted it (MrWooJroofe: If a friend p —laughter),' and 1 saddled the ratepayers e with the cost of such streets. (Give an instance). Well; Dixon's estate. It was a shame ! to ; speod the ratepay- ® ers money' to" make these streets (ap--0 plause.) What an absurd proposal that was y also to vote £6OO for a steam, fire engine, 7 arii) 'another £3OO for water. .Wiy the J Chinamen could lay water all over the town !, for £o (laughter.) It would be. better to be 1- ankle deep in mud than up to!, the neolc in \ debt, so he should vote against the proposal. Mr Vile said his views were pretty generis ally known, and he could not throw much a more'ight upo.i the subject ;The Leader of e the Opposition had'pickerl out three or four 1 0 of,ihe, streets ,ia rtiie. schedule and stated r 'tbery,wou)4 ajwori* if 1 they did they deserved it, Chapel-street e s'l'ould have been done long ago; and there 9 was not another work more required than y Yilla-atreet. Worksop road was a through , r street, and : would prove of great- me.and n coDvenieDce to the ratepayers. .One speaker i had, suggests! that it would, be better tc j strike ft special rate, but ,this would be askr the people to subscribe £3OOO while' the loan would not take more than the usual one »" shilling rate. "(Mr EiistHope' ,','Queify., query, a where are your figures ?)" The speaker cone tinned, you can go into figures, for yourself a and prove that. Mr Rapp had himt self.been oho .of, thosp wbo had spoken to ( -Borough Councillors las to what he 8 termed the disjvacefn'. conditWof streets ,f in his neighborhood,; ~ and although he . here opposed a loan helwoiild be'one of the j- first to ask the Council- for-road work. If j' ratepayers had wisdom they would certainly r go in for the proposed loan. ' j ' Mr Woodroofe rose to [move the adjournt ment of the debate, but was oaUed to order, f' as the time for closine the' meeting had not 9 arrived, i As lfr:(Woddroofe deolined to •, speak then, 9 . Mr Park said he must fillthe breach himi self. Mr Vile had appealed to common i sense; he would do the same. If Mr Vile r were acting for himself, he would not advise t anyone; to go into debt , if be could help it ( (Mc>;,yile: Hear, hear), He held that the Borough could.help,,it,;.. ; They could conBtract.roads out of special .rates, and with I the help of the subsidies proposed by;,Gi t flapper: and adopted, by j the ; . : ppncoil (Mi

Vile: A failure), Half the loan would b© spout in Dixon's eatate, which w.>h id the hands of speculators who would Bull oat, ■, and thus esoape taxation. Mr Rodman had admitted that extra rates! would be neoos- ■ ■ snvy if a loan were oMained (Mr Beilman: No). Mr Isitt was evidently chaffing when lie said they could not keep their prosent roads in repair. How would they do when the loan wm spent and miltaqe inereased 1 (Mr (Velberg; Ah,' that's a out above you.) (uughter). Mr Isitt said borrowing was not disastrous.,.Say,en». man owned Masterton, .would He boirow f6OO to nurchasa a steam fire'ennne which wbold take £3OO a ywr to keep eloient J No doubt M* Caselberg would supply 1 kerosene at the cheapest'rate to enable steam to be kept up. a 5, jf, OaMlblrflpe to 1 a l ppini(Qf.order. Ha did not think Mr Park should allude to him in connection with kerosene m probably the engin'e'would be heated by electricity, ana Mr Park would le the electrician. The speaker ruled Mr Park's remarks out of order, and the latter withdrew them p.na . proceeded.Be held paying interest; and sinkinj .fund'jtnera 0 9M- no ', " B miioh left for maintenance and , A special rate would be a If the 1 rUes : were increased the value of property would be lowered, ■ Mr James said he would endeavor to say f a few, words in favor of his side, though only/ a member learning debate, The leader of the opposition Jud 'aid money was thrown away in"! ihaltiriff streets where;, there were no houses. He held that if roads were worn : out by traffic it showed they were neoeasary, though there were few houses on them. Villa (jstreei/wasaohsein point./-Should they negloot tho road fiom Cptierton tb'Ma<teri;ra because there were few houses on it! The opposition bad evidently'not gone over the streets when the weather was wet, and could, not therefore form an idea of their stato. i hey had walked along Queen' street, which was in fair condition, and had not thought of the.settlers on the unformed and unmetrM sheets (applause).'' J • ' The Rev Mr Isitt rose in explanation. He had been severely commented upon, but he wished it understood that he Bpoke merely as a member of the Debating Society, and as a matter of fact he was not versed enough in oivio affairs to have an opinion on the matter.- . They met simply to practise debate, not to .express conviction;. ' . - ' Mr Arnold believedin a special rate instead of a loan, aiid strongly opposed 1 the steam fire engine vote. He would vote against the loan, as he did not believe in the schedule, : : Woodroofe then ■ the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to and the meeting closed.