MR SAUNDERS' SPEECH ON THE CIVIL SERVICE.

Wairarapa Daily Times, Volume 2, Issue 525, 26 July 1880, Page 2

MR SAUNDERS' SPEECH ON THE CIVIL SERVICE.

(Abridged from Hansard.)

Mr Saunders said: I feel a vory deep sense of responsibility in rising to make the motion I do, and a very painful conviction that 1 am entirely unequal to the task; but, although I feel strongly my own inability to discharge the duty that devolves upon me, I would wish to say that, in speaking as Chairman of the late Civil Service Commission, I intend to take much higher ground than I should take if I spoke simply as member for Cheviot. I think that, when four gentlemen are appointed to make an enquiry into any subject the House may wish investigated, there is. something due to thom. They are not placed in the position either of a Judge or a jury; they are not sworn to give their verdict according to evidence: they are expected not only to take evidence but to use their own eyes and ears. Indeed, the evidence of their own senses has been a far better guide to them than any communicated testimony. When four gentlemen cnme lo a unanimous conclusion upon matters of fact—and I say that Commission was unanimous upon every matter of fact stated in that report—l think they are entitled to some respect, and that their statements are not to be placed exactly on the level of the statements made by Oivilservants, who may feel their interests endangered by the statements made in the report. I make this statement, not because I wish to take advantage.of that position, and not because I feel that any of the statements are incapable of being supported by the strongest evidence, but I do not think I should discharge my duty to-night if I did.not say that the unanimous verdict of four impartial men —who had every possible opportunity of knowing the circumstances that led to that report—is entitled to a great deal more respect from this House, from the Government, and from the Opposition than the report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service has yet received. Before I go into what I have to say to-night it will be necessary—l am requested to do so—to read a letter from one of the Commissioners who has no other opportunity of being heard in this House. I regret that he has requested me to read the letter, beoause, although he is one of the most able, and certainly the most zealous, of the members of the Commission, he is the youngest and least practised in public life, and, as such, I feav that he has not acquired that thick hide, that thorough indifference to all the remarks that may be made upon the actions of a public man, that a more experienced man would possess. The House will see that he has taken a great deal more notice than he need have taken of the attacks that have been made on the report of the Commission in a letter by Mr Oonyers, With these remarks I will proceed to read his letter:—

" Longwood, 10th July, 1880. "Mi dear Mr Saunders,-As I understand our report it to be discussed on Monday night, I hope you will show how entirely Mr. Conyera has misrepresented our meaning in his letter to the Minister for Publio Works. I feel very strongly that I am placed in a false position in the matter, not being in the House to answer the statements which he has made, and whioh are,, it appears to me, to a great extent indorsed by the Minister in laying the letter on tho table of the House. You will of course be able to show that all we have said is supported by strong evidence, and I am quite content, so far as that is concerned, to leave the matter in your hands. There are, however, one or two points on which I shall be glad if you will state my individual views in the House, as the statements contained in Mr Conyer's letter make such an explanation necessary, " Reading the letter carefully, I see that it has been written under a complete misunderstanding. Mr Conyers. treats the whole report as-an 'indictment 1 against him, and appears to think it necessary to show that he is not to be blame for a variety of things, stated by us as facts without the least intention of saying that the fault was his. I wish it to be distinctly understood that I, fob one, did not in any way consider thatill the instances we gave were intended' as proofs of Mr Conyer's mismanagement. They were merely stated as facts which should ba known, without our expressing any opinion as to who was responsible. " The only opinion we expressed with regard to Mr Conyerr was that he had not ' displayed the high qualities' necessary for the task he had undertaken,' and this opinion is stated to be based, not, as h« assumes, on the instances given, but on ' the. great mass of evidence before us' I rnay say that the main ground on which I was forced to come to this conclusion was one which would not be in the least affeoted even if he were able to disprove all the facts we have given. It was that all the evidence shewed such a feeling of antagonism between the sub-departments, and such a want of definite organisation of any. kind, as could only arise from very defective general control: at the same' time such a spirit of extravagance was evident that, on these grounds, without pretending to be competent, to. decide on any technical question, I agreed in the' opinion that we expressed. ' I should also ; like you to protest, in my name, against the statement that " The Commissioners strongly-insisted that every station-master should be empowered to arrange the orossing-places of trains." This is obviously absurd, as we were taking evidence, not expressing opinions. I quite agree with Mr Conyers in thinking that such an arrangement would have disastrous results, and Itherefore object to his stating this as the opinion of the Commissioners. " I have, &e,, .. "C. PHABAZYK." : ' The first motion that stands on the Order Paper in my name is, That a copy of the report of Mr W. N. Blair, the Engineer-in-Chief for.the Middle Island, which was readiri this House on the 30th of last month by the Minister for Public Works, 'denying' ' the' accuracy of statements made in the. report .of the ■Civil Service Commission as to the condition of certain railway waggons built in Dunedin, and assarting that "There.is not; the slightest ground for thinking them defective," and that '" They; have in every .instance been , well made, -with proper materials," bfe laid before thu House Sir, the paper that I raove formay not be antheposiessiohofhonorable.membiri. ItiiAvery short one, and Iwill read it,

this department at Dunedin were delivered in Chriitohurch at the end of last year, and I believe"the same remark applies to the Railway Department. " The last contract for waggons iu Dunedin was finishe'd in August, 1877, consequently they had been running for thirteen months before the line to Ohriitohuroh wai,opened, ; »nd nearljrtvotndi half year* before the date wferwd'to, I may »dd that, as waggons built under the supervision of this department in Dunedih-at'any.-.'time.; are concerned, there is not the slightest ground for thinking them defective: tliey hare in every instance been well made, withproper material*, . K , " As ; the , proposition laid down in ' asking the questions, is incorrect,; they oannot, of course, be answered otherwise than at above. : '

" W. N. Bunt, " Engineer in Charge, Middle Island." That, Sir, is a very short document; but, to my mind, it is one of the most important documents ever asked for in this House: in fact; I may go. further and say it is one of the most humilating documents ever produced ia this House, The statements there made are, whether wilfully or carelessly so, incorrect. We are told that the last contract for wagons in Dunedin was'finished in August, 1877, and consequently they had been running for thirteen months. When honorable members see the way in which those wagons were constructed they will see at once that it was'impossible for them to have run thirteen months, or that, if they did so run, they must have been empty; the only wonder is that the nails in Ihe flooring-boards were sufficiently strong to keep tnein together long enough to travel empty from Dunedin to Ohristchurch. We do not say where or when those wagons were built: we simply say those delivered in Ohristchurch about the end of last year were in a disgraceful state,. Honorable members can see the specimens that have beet sent up, and I will desoribe them further as I go on. The honorable member for Tuapeka, a few days ago, moved—but in some way it .was rather irregular—for copies of the telegrams and letters which passed-between the Chairman of the late Civil Service Commission and Mr Alison D. Smith, of Ohristchurch. Strictly speaking,, there were no letters or telegrams, because I had no communication with Mr Smith until after the Civil Service Commission had ceased to exist.-: all the letters and telegrams I received from Mr Smith'were received since that time. They are as follows

'" Ohriatchurch, 11,40 a.m.,lst July, 1880.—I can substantiate every word I told you in evidence, and will forward by first mail complete report to yourself. I hare abundant proofs, and hare at present four wagons in sidings, which are available for inspection. The Hon. Mr Oliver saw two. .of. these wagons when going through workshops. Will seridyou.specimens of timber and workmanship -by mail. I thank, you for giving- me-the opportunity of verifying my statement,— Alison D. Smith.—A. Saunders, .Esq., M.H R,, Wellington." "2nd July, 1880.—Confirmatory evidence and case of specimens forwarded to you last night per 'Stella,' addressed ' House of Representatives. 1 I earnestly trust that you will have the, queition thoroughly investigated, as, from tha reports of the Hon. Minister for Publio Works and Mr Blair's letter, the lie direct has been given to evidence. —Ahson D. Smith. " Christohurch, Bth July, 1880.—Will it be necessary for me to send further information re bad work in wagons,, or more specimens? I have a great number collected. I could also produce many expert witnesses to verify evidence.—Aliso# D. Smith." "Christohurch, 10th July, 1880. Here are no less than twenty-six wagons standing in workshop siding, requiring to be rebuilt'. All bad workmanship, and built in Dunedin.—Aiison D. Smith." "A. Saunders, Esq., " Chairman Civil Service Commission, " Wellington."

Now, sir, witH such evidence as that before us—with, the possibility of seeing with our eyes, with the knowledge that the present Minister for Public Works has seen two of the wagons himself, and with the knowledge, that twenty-six more of them are now lying at the siding. at Addington waiting to be re-built—what are you to think of such a letter as'.that, written by one of the': highest civil servants in the colony, and placed-before this Houee by the Minister for Publio Works 1 Sir, when I think of the, position Mr Blair occupies, and ot the millions of expenditure'that he has' intrusted to his capacity and veracity, such a report ai this from him appears ■tometo be one of - the most serious things we have ever had to tako into consideration. What is the value of a man in such.a position as that who is capable of misleading this House to the extent, to which that letter is calculated to mislead 1 I hare not the slightest intention to attaok any person to-night. I intend to stand here fearleply and assert the truth; and it is a matjsr : of perfect indifference to me -whether Mr Blair, or Mr Oonyers,. or Mr Anybodyelse shall come under the reprobation which truth will find for them. It would have been easy for the Commissioner! to have steered a safe and easy.course; it would have been exceedingly easy for them to have brought in a report similar to that brought in by the last Civil Service Commission, recommending an easy and generally-comfortable reform—that the Civil Service oiSoials;'should be made more comfortable and secure. That report received universal approbation, but it was one which, I believe, produced bo • effect, or, at all events, none in the direction of economy. We were not to do the same. We felt, that, if our work was to,be. of any good,* we.muit state definite facts. .We must'investigate matters for ourselves, and make the in- . • . formation we obtained publio, so. as .to put the Government in a position to act upon ,the : information so obtained. '. I noticed that, in this House, if you get up and say there are too many Civil-Servants, ana their number should be'reduced, there is a general clapping of hands' and ' cheering all round, and everyone ' believes the statement ;, but put. your finger upon one person Who. oan be dis- ' missed and sa y> " There is the man," and you find at once that you have put your hand into a hornet's nest,'and have the strongest body of meniri any colony .ready to attack you. We knew this quite well when we were.framing our report. We knew that we should,have ,the highestCivil servants in the colony doing everything they could to damage that report, and describing it as a misleading and careless conclusion from facts. But lam glad to see that the report hai stood the fire so well as- it has- done : that it hai stood the first attaok ; made : upon -it} although backed - up. by. !; on'e ! of •' the highest Civil Servants in" the colony,' in a letter like the.one I now. Uk to be laid on the table, and a'letter that must inflict everlasting reprobation upon him. :■ The report i has been 'attacked' by the Pre3s: it has been attacked by the . Opposition: it has been attacked by_Go-. ■ . vernment. supporters,; and- even by the action of the Minister for Public Worki 1whioh ihows .that the raport 'huvfleased . nopartyin the-Houie or the country, and :