PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuapeka Times, Volume VII, Issue 361, 3 June 1874, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

I ;i2z__ ... FmiDAT, 29th May. , :^'bnlT debit* of any importance to the gddfoiaa, *hiehtook place »t the Friday's ' fitting of the Council, was that on the lAIB Of ATTMIEBOTTS LANDS. Jfo, M'Lean moved— "That referring to tb» Honor's opening Address relative to the /jAI-ef auriferous lands, this Council is of opjnoirsh*t tile, auriferous, as well as the poitWurifeifcu, lands in this Province, should be alienated from the Crown, in such manner and on such terms and conditions as will enable persons .of- all classes (if so disposed) to acquire the 'freeholdof portions thereof ." In the hoarse Of his remarks the honorable.membfr"gaTe«ome statistics. He said the' tofal annual value of ,the agricultural industry was £1,707,487 ; while the total annual value of the pastoral industry was £1,703,147. For the Tear ending Ist March, the value of the gold* obtained was £607,645, or only 35 per per cent, of either of the other industries, or only 20 per. cent, if the other two industries were taken together. The area set aside for gold-seeking was 6,117,868 acres, while the ar%a under' crops, &c., was only 372,398 acres. The honorable member then proceeded to argue that the best way to prevent the utter destruction of the land by those who worked it for gold, was to give them the freehold of the land; and to give them an interest in preterving it. The goldfield industry was in a languishing state, and this state of things could only be altered by giving capitalists the knowledge that they were investing their capital on their own property. Mr. Wood supported the motion and proposed the following addition " And that this Council request His Honor, during the next session of the Assembly to so amend the Waste Lands Act as to give effect to this retolution. Mr. Reid said the difficulty they had to deal with was the objection on the part' of miners to the sale of agricultural laud that wonld only yield them a bare remuneration. fle did not agree with the honourable member on some of the reasons he had advanced. He thought that if there was to be more speculation and competition, less encouragement would be given under the system proposed than under the old system, Was not the lease socurity to those who wished to speculate. It left the capital available for the development of the works, in place of lacking it np in the first purchase of the I land. At the present time, persons who ; Kuked^to embark in mining enterprises were ; in a far better .position than they would be 1 if the principle contained^in the motion was carried out. If the leases were too short, 1 increase them, and also gire security to s capital in case the lease expired before the mine was worked out. He Was bound to oppose the motion. | Mr. M'Glashan opposed the motion. i The House then adjourned. I On the House resuming at 7 o'clock, < . Mr. Kinross said he thought the honourable member, Mr. M'Lean, looked at this i question merely from a capitalist's point of view. He thought the best way of preventing miners from rushing away to this aud that goldfield, would be to remove all obstal cles at present in the way of miners obtain •• ing homesteads in the vicinity of their gold- \ workings. He would oppose the motion. ' Mr. DeLantour said it was obvious that ■ if the purcilase of auriferous ground were » recognised by the law, capitalists would at I once get possession of the auriferous lands ; ; lrat it was very doubtful whether they would J pat that land to. the best advantage. If i they sold those lands, they would drive 5 away all their mining populatien, The whole I {lifficuljby of getting rid of those lands which | were auriferous, but scarcely so to a payable * extent, might be obviated by adopting a mo- : diliedH^Btem of ..free selection all over x the | Province. , He denied their was any jeaklousy among the miners of the agriculturists. | The whole aim of the miners in his exten- \ me district was to obtain land for agricult tnral purposes' in conjunction with their i mining occupation ; but their requests for \ agricultural ,land was unheeded by the tCounciL j > Mr. R, Clarke said that he was quite as much in favour of the resolution as the honourable member who had moved it, if he thought it was practicable. If all the agricultural lands that had been destroyed by miners had been put together, it would not | make a good eked farm. The honourable | nfetnber then proceeded to give instances where the miners had worked without de- ] itroying the land. It wonld be quite imposi nble to carry the resolution out, even if the \ Council carried it. As a matter of revenue, 8 it' would be ruinous to sell the auriferous i land. It would be much better to have this matter placed before the country. The honourable member then entered into a general defence of the miners ; touched on the immigration question : alluded to the amount . spent by England on wars ; compared the .relative merits of soldiers and miners ; dwelt { on the folly of allowing calm thought to be ruffled by personal feeling in the discussion of matters before the House ; and then stated i the fact that in the district he came from, thousands of acres of forest trees grow out of the solid rock, as going to prove that the | miners did not injure the land. Whether the motion was carried or thrown out, he did not think it would have any effect on the General Assembly. The Honourable mem1 her sat down amid applause. ' Mr. G. F. C. Browne opposed the motion and did not think the statistics produced by , the mover gave any reason why the resolution should be carried. The employment of •o many men on public works, and the litigation with respect to the pollution of water bad an effect in making the goldfields languish. The sale of land wonld have a bad effect on minings and would also prevent 'prospecting. He was entirely opposed to the sale of any land. Mr. Lumsden said that the discovery of the honourable member for Queenstown, that they could plant their potatoes in schist rock wat a valuable one, and one likely to enhance the importance of the goldfields in the eyes of honourable members. The miners were generally supposed to be an •R&tic class, and the honourable member for Qneenstown in his speech appeared to be in * sympathy with' them. He did not think that the time had come when he should attempt to carry out such: a radical change in our golcUmining laws. In Victoria, the knqfctgP 'point was how to deal with the ; question of mining on private property ; and v liere it was proposed to make all the mules 'private property. He thought there was a gnat harmony amongst the three great inter- . ••U— pastoral, agricultural, and gold-mining —and that one depended, to a certain extent, on the other. He would oppose the .motion. I Mr. Ireland wished the question to be | adjourned' uctil Monday, as he wished to i consult some statistics, and in order that the j* question might be thoroughly ventilated. ; Mr. M'Dennid seconded the motion for * adjournment, as he wished to investigate the I iinporturt discovery that the best trees could I te groi^Jtm solid rocks, — (Laugliter.) % The motion for adjournment was put and | negatived. : '? | ~ Mr. Wool's amendment, or addition to the js motion, was then pttjb and negatived. rMr. J. C. Brown said it wa» evident that Mfc morer of the resolution had some other I motive than the disposal of auriferous lands. I There was one very important part with i reference to the sale of auriferous hind. • If Ftbe motion wa» v adopted, a great deal of i revenue would •be lost to the "'Province.' \ There was no doußt that the object of the I notion rwas to get at the other lands, ! alluded tor *l^-atmfero\£ tod. non-auriferous. L Itadi, «& the mover would not be the last to t takV advantage of it if it was paiaecL The number then alluded to the

immigration system, and the necessity for th< prevention' of the alienation of large blocks o land. When the end of our borrowinj powers come, we .should have to reßort t< direct taxation, and the sooner this pnncipli was recognised, the 1 better,— (Hear, hear.] He had an amendment to propose which sooner or later, would meet with the approva of the House — '" In the opinion of this House the only way to provide for the proper an( profitable occupation of mineral, agricultural and pastoral lands, is by leasing instead o selling them. 2nd. That, in order to pro vide for the deficiency in revenue cause< by this, an income and land tax be imposed 3rd. That a respectful Address be presentee to His Honour the Superintendent, requesting him to urge the Colonial Government to intro duce the necessary Bills in the ColCnia Parliament to carry out the foregoing resolu tions. — (Hear, hear, and laughter). Mr. Stout said that a statement had thai night been made with reference to a forme: debate, in which he referred to " the un earned increment " of the land. The honour able member then proceeded to quote froir John Stuart Mill on the subject, to show thai the basis of the principle of the State being the landlord was asserted. If he wished tc take up the time of the Council he could show that the principle was not only recognised ir England but in other parts of Europe Other writers besides Mill had argued ir favour of the principle, The question ol population and the area of agricultural land had before been brought up, and must again be brought up prominently before the people of this Province, and of the other Pro' vinces too. Where the land had been monopolised in large blocks it remained unimproved, and if the same rate of sale of agricultural land were maintained in this Province there woidd be no more agricultural land in twenty years. Then we should have as much population as we could bear, and the land-owners would gradually become |an aristocracy. He feared it was too late tc adopt the system of leasing the land here — (no, no) — for the people had been too much educated to look upon the land as a means of paying current expenditure. It was impossible here- to conserve our lauds if all districts were clamorous for public works. All the public works must come out of loan, and the interest and sinking fund, must come out of direct taxation, or this view of the matter must be dropped, and we must look upon it as one of revenue. , Without what was proposed, there was no possible method of conserving the land. The parting with the freehold on the goldfields was not the mere parting with auriferous lands, but new discoveries and prospecting were prevented. We must reserve this right on the goldfields, and this could not pdtesibly be done if the freehold of the land was parted with. The gold mining interest would be destroyed by such a course. The question, which might at first look theoretical, was in reality a pressing practical question. There was more reason for reserving the mineral lands than the agricultural and pastoral lands. Let them look at what had happened in a small way in thie Province by the sale of coal-producing lands. This was simply giving to private individuals a monopoly of the capital of the country to work or waste as they thought fit. When the honourable member moved this motion he to a certain extent, and with the reservation that had been made, carried the present land question to its legitimate conclusion — to its bitter end. In discussing this amendment, he hoped honourable members would discuss it in a proper .spirit. He believed firmly that if this system of leasing lands had heen adopted in this Province, they would not have had the bitter struggles between the different interests that they had had, and other difficulties "would have arisen. If this had been adopted in the past we should have had a yearly increasing, in place of a yearly decreasing, revenue, and in place of requiring taxation we should have been able to do without it, for when the leases fell in their value would be increased. Every railway that was constructed would have increased the value of the land &o much that the State would have been benefited. It had been said that if the leasing were adopted the tenants would not take so much trouble, and that there would not be such good farming, • Let them look -at what was the case in the Lothians in Scotland, where the tenants were the best farmers. There and in England, where they had not the advantages of Crown tenants, the land was improved year after year. The best proof in a matter of this kind was an appeal to facts, and the landlords in England had not farmed their lands -so well as had their tenants, who received no compensation for their improvements at all. If the leasing system were adopted here, there might be a small compensation for improvements allowed, and then each shipload of immigrants who came here would directly benefit the state. Tc prevent the danger that theatened, thej should insist upon a Land Tax and an Income Tax.— (Applause.) The amendment was pnt and negatived on s division, the result being : • < Ayes, 14: Bastings, J. C. Brown (teller) G-. F. C. Browne, . Daniel, Fish, Hazlett, Ireland, Kinrosss, Lumsden, M'Kellar, Reeves (teller), Stout, Sumpter, Wood. Pair: Aye, E. Clark; No, W. H. Keynolds. Noes, 17: Allan, H. Clark, Davie (teller). De Latour, Haggitt, Henderson, M'Dermid M'Q-lashan,M'Eenzie, M'Lean (teller), M'Neii Eeid, Roberts, -Eogers, Shaud, Webster Wood. Mr. De Latour said that he had advocated a system of restricted free selection based or, Mr. Bradshaw's Bill introduced last session that was based on the Victorian Act of 1866 : which had worked well,' and he would like tc see such an Act adopted here. Mr. M'Dermid opposed the motion, ano shortly explained his reasons. The principles upon whicd he proposed to carry out the land laws of the Colony were the principlei adopted and carried out by the Maoris 20( years before the wh,ite people came here — (No.) Unless the land was possessed bj individuals theqe would never be any "un earned increment." They all got a 'sharo oi the unearned increment, and the honorable member who moved the motion had some oj the " unearned increment " of his land in his pocket at the present time. — (Laughter.] People would not labor except for them' selves. Mr. M'Lean spoke in reply, and asked what prosperity the principle of ,the State keeping possession of the land had produced in Chin? and the East. He also alluded to the fact that America had not tried to retain one acn of land, The House then divided on. the origina motion,' which was negatived, the divisioi list being as follows : Ayes, 4 : Fish, M'Lean (teller), Eogers Webster (teller.) • Noes, 23: Allan, Bastings, J. C. Brown ( teller), G- F.C. Browne, Daniels, Davie, l/< Latour, Hazlett, Ireland, Kinross, Lumsdei (teller), M'Dermid, M'GHashan, M'Kellar M-Kenzie, Beeves, Eoberts, Shand, Stout Sumpter, Wilson, Wood. Mr. Fish said that he wished to explait why he had voted as he did vote on thii occasion. In order to force a division t< he recorded he voted with the Ayes, thougl his sympathies were entirely with the Noes COLTiEOTIOy OF IOCAI EEVENTTES AT WAITA HUNA. Mr. <3t. F. C. Brewrie'askod the Provin cial Treasurer — "Whether" the revenue ha been collected in the Waitahuna distric under Ordinances as described in the sche d'ule of the Local Eevenue, Ordinance. 1872 also if the. amount so collected has been pai< into tho .Treasury or to the Municipa .Council at Lawrence ?" ' Mr. Turnbull replied that he was not awar that any instructions had been given to pa;

the revenue into the Corporation at Lawrence It had been collected and paid into the Provincial Treasury, where it ought to be paid. The Corporation of Lawrence could only collect those revenues within its own boundaries and the licence' fees collected in the Waitahura' districts are quite outside those boundaries. BEMOVAI. OP WAITAHUNA POLICE CAlir. Mr. G. F. C. Browne asked the Secretary for Works — '• If it is the intention of, the Government to remove the Police Camp from the present township (Waitahuna) to the township at Havelock ; if so, will a sufficient sum be placed on the Estimates to erect new buildings F " Mr. Reid replied that it was the intention of the Government to remove the Police Camp at Waitahuna. He did not know if a sufficient sum would be placed on the Estimates to remove the whole of tho Camp this year ; but a sum would be placed on the Estimates for the purpose of making some progress with the work. PETITION. Mr. M'Kellar presented a petition from the Mayor and Town Councillors of Cromwell, with reference to the extension of the Tokomairiro and Lawrence Railway. . Monday, June 1. Several petitions were received. HAVBLOCK. Mr. G, F. C. Browne moved — " That in the opinion of this Council, it is essential that 30Q0 acres of land should be set aside as a permanent commonage for the township of Havelock, and that the selection of such land be left in the hands of the Government." Agreed to. LA WHENCE EESEETE SALE BILL. On the motion of Mr. Stout, this Bill was read a second time, committed, «nd reported without amendment. ' The third reading was then carried. ' STEADS CASE. In answer to Mr. Bastings' question, — " By what right, or in virtue of what Act or Regulation, the gaoler of H.M. Gaol, Dunedin, deprived the debtor . prisoner Stead of the use of pens, ink, and paper ?" — the Provincial Secretary read a letter from the gaoler in which he stated that while he was not compelled to supply debtors with writing material, he had given Stead every opportunity of writing letters in his own office or in the Warden's room. EAILWAY RESOLUTIONS. The House then went into Committee on the resolutions submitted by the Government in answer to the Superintendents Message No. 10, relative to the construction of certain lines of railway, and the application to the General Assembly for a loan for the purpose. Mr. Reid moved the second resolution — " That in order to give special security to the Colonial Government for the repayment of the loan, an area of 2,070,453 acres of waste lands be set apart, and until the loan has been repaid the revenues arising from tho sale or rents of the lands set apart ns security shall be paid from time to time in liquidation of tho charges on the loan as they may arise; but the lands set apart as security shall be liable to be sold and disposed of in the same manner in all respects as other waste lauda of the Crown, ,and shall be subject to any laws which may be in force for the disposal of lands, either by sale on deferred payments or for special settlements. Tho proceeds of sales or leases of land set apart aB security to be paid to a separate account, aud to be applied towards payment of the interest falling due on the moneys raised, and to a repayment 1 of one-twentieth in each 3'ear of the principal sura of such moneys." Mr. Gillies inorcd an amendment, which was lost on the voices. . Mr. De Latour also moved an amendment, which was lost on the voices. , Mr. Ireland moved another resolution, which was lost on a division by 20 against 9.The original motion was put and carried without a division. Mr: Reid then moved the the third resolution as follows :—": — " That the construction of the lines already authorised, and for which contracts hqye been accepted, be prosecuted during the, current year, payment to be made from revenue or loan." Mr. Fish moved the following amendment : — " Seeing the tenders for the construction of the lines of railway referred to in resolution No. 3, and accepted by the late Government, far exceed in amount the sum appropriated by the Provincial Council for this purpose, this Council is of opinion that such contracts, with the exception of the Green Island one, be not recognised by this Council, and if the proposed loan be obtained from the General Assembly^ that^fresh tenders be called for the sanve," J , The tenders that had been accepted amounted to £151,760, and this did not include rolling stock. ■ Mr. Gillies moved the adjournment of the debate until the Select Committee appointed to enquire iuto'"'th*' acceptance of these ten l ders reported to fihe'Council. . The motion for the adjournment of the debate was put in the form of a motion for reporting progress, and carried. , The Council, .after, some osJjer uninteresting business was " transacted, ''adjourned till Tuesday. r