Stonewalling Tactics.

Thames Star, Volume XII, Issue 3957, 3 September 1881, Page 2

Stonewalling Tactics.

Our latest telegram in last issue left Mr Swauson in possession of the House, and after lie had concluded Mr Hursthouse commenced, and having spoken on a variety of subjects, was relieved at 1230 by Mr Gibbs. Mr Thompson was at the same time relieved from the chair by Mr Seymour. The speaking till 5.30 was kept up by Messrs Levistam, Harris, Gibbs, Pitt, Lundon, Collins, Hursthouse, and Seddon, who was speaking when the hour for adjournment arrived. On resuming at 7.30, there was a large attendance of members. ■ Mr Seymour topic the chair. He said, before calling on tho business: I desire to make a statement on the conduct of the business. The' Committee has now been sitting 48 hours, and has negatived on 23 occasions motions for reporting progress, or the Chairman leave the chair. I am of opinion that the limits of fair discussiou have been overstepped on this occasion, and it becomes my duty as Chairman, iv order to uphold the proper conduct of the business of the Committee, to pat*a stop to the proceedings which have become obstructive. For the present, therefore, I shall not permit to be proposed, nor shall I put from the chair, any further, nofico to report, progress, or to leayo the chair. I. shall submit to the consideration of the committee any new clauses or amendments which may be bona fide aud in order, and I shall then strictly confine to the discussion of these amendments to the point immediately under consideration. I feel sensible of the importance of the decision to which I hare arrived, but I am of opinion that the decision was absolutely necessary for the proper conduct of business; that tho deliberation of the Committee should be brought to that point which is usual in all fair discussion of the measure submitted to it by the House. 1 have only now to add that 1 shall not allow this ruling of mine to be disputed. If any hoii member objects jto.the course I propose to take— arid there may be some hon members wtyo may think tfrat jn the proposal ]. mak<e for the uonduct of lh.e business o,f the chair I am overstepping due authority—, then I think the proper time for the discussion of that point is when the House is sitting, and the Speaker is in the chair. I shall hot allow the ruling I give now to be challenged. Mr Gisborne rpse, and moved that the CUiiUiuau report progress, in ufd^r thai

the unprecedented ruling of the Chair«mn of Committee relating to his procedure in committee, may be submitted to the consideration of the House. (Loud cheers and clapping of hands from the stonewalling party. The Chairman : I may inform the Committee that I shall decline to put this. (Applause from the Ministerial side.) Mr Gisborne rose to speak to his motion when the Chairman said: The hon. gentleman wiil speak to the clause under consideration. Mr Gisborne: I shall speak to my motion. (Cheers aud cries of " the chair.") The Chairman : The hon. gentleman will speak to the clause. Mr Gisborne : 1 believe I am asserting the privileges of the House. (Cheers from the Opposition party.) If my conduct be disorderly I wish it to be reported to the House. The Chairman : I understand the hon. member declines to speak to the clause under discussion. ' Mr Gisborne: I do. ; The Chairman : And that he intends to speak to his motion, In that case Iy.declare the hon. member acting in defiance lof the Chair. (Cheers from the Opposition.)

The Premier besought the members to: be calm. There was no cause for excite- 1 ment, and they should be prepared to deal with the matter in a calm, judicial spirit. That was the only way they were likely to arrive at a just conclusion. The Chairman then said he would leave the chair, and report that the hon. member for Totara had been guilty of disorderly conduct. The Chairman having done so, Sir George Grey rose, aud was about to speak, when The Speaker, in a fierce voice, cried "order." If any member rises when I am on my legs, summary proceedings will be ordered to be taken. It has been reported that Mr Gisborne,'the member for Totara, has been guilty of disorderly conduct in Committee. I will now afford the hon. member an opportunity of explaining bis conduct, after which he will withdraw from the chamber until the House deliberates what course it will pursue with regard to him. Mr Hall said: Before I proceed to move the motion which has just now been indicated by you yourself, sir, may I ask you to call the hon. member whose conduct has been challenged, to reconsider the matter. The Speaker: I must positively decline doing so. It has been explained to me that the authority of the Chairman of Committee has been set at defiance, and I have in due form called upon and given the hon. member an opportunity for explaining his conduct. ' This .he has declined to do, and it must be assumed that he had in his mind a full knowledge lof the consequences. I therefore must decline to interfere any farther, as has been suggested by the hon. the Premier: I now await the motion requisite for \ dealing with the hon. member under these circumstances. ; . .'■■■-■

■ Mr Hall s> Sir, Ihaveto morei and I do so with regret, that the Hod Mr Gisborne, a member of this House, baring continued to interrupt the business of this House in Committee, after having been called upon by the Chairman to desist, that he shall be held to have been guilty of contempt; I do this, sir, with very great regret, as I I cannot but admit that while the hon. mcmi ber has undoubtedly defied the authority i of the House, he has done so in no spirit lof • fractiousriess, and has simply been actuated by a desire to assert what/he undoubtedly seems to consider to have been i a right. Believing him to be wrong, as he undoubtedly was, the Chairman reported the matter to yourself. You have decided 1 that Mr Gisborne was in the wrong, (Cries of "no," "yes,") therefore I beg to move— The Speaker: In dealing with a'case of this kind, I beg that it may be done in a, spirit of solemnity due to the importance of the event. I desire, therefore, you will confine your remarks as strictly as possible to the business on hand. Mr Hall: I would ask yon, sir, if it will be competent to accept of a resolution affirming the offence, leaving the question of the penalty to be inflicted to be dealt with by a separate resolution afterwards. The Speaker was understood to reply in the negative. Mr Hall: Then, sir, I will move the motion I have just read, with the addition insisted on by you, " and that the penalty be £20." The Speaker : The penalty asked for is £20, not £50, as provided by the, Standing Orders. It is h very light punishment i lor the oft'ence with which the hon. member is charged; but as this is the first case of the kind, I am not disposed to interfere. Sir G. Grey : I move as an amendment to the motion you have just read, '* That the Hon. Mr Gisborne highly strove to bring under review of the House the ruling of the Chairman of Committees, which he believed to be of an unprecedented nature." He believed that the ruling of the Chairman; in refusing to accept his motion was unprecedented. In asserting that view there was'nothing in the conduct of the Hon. Mr Gisborne that could by any possibility be construed into a spirit of factious opposition. He stated most distinctly that he believed be was acting on a ruling given by Mr Seymour, the Chairman of the Committee, on a previous occasion. They had all heard that ruling. It was given, openly, and there uould be no doubt but that the Chairman of Committees gave them most distinctly to understand that any challenge they had to mako in Committee would have to be reported to yon, 'sir/as Speaker of this House. Under these circumstances, I contend again, sir, that the hon. member desgrreg the gratitude of this House. He deserves bur praises rather than our ceusures for the spirit of calmness and politeness, sir, in which he contended for what he, in common with many more members in this House, conceived to be ah undoubted right. Then,' again, sir, I have to point out that this is a novel course of action proposed to be taken, and as such the hon. member is entitled to consideration.' '

Sir Wm. Fox admitted that the hon. member had asserted what he considered to be his frights iv a Spirit of perfect fairness and forbearance; bat then they had to take all the circumstances of the case into account. The obstruction had been carried' to a ?ery great length, and Ifuless a strqug hgucj *»!?«"? '■ flip business could not possibly be gone qi> with. Mr Grisborne had no doubt Toluntarily ' put himself forward as a martyr..^;; .... , ;■.'.•:-' ..... . " . - ;: '. Mr Sheehan defended the action taken by Mr Gisborno, and thought he was deaemu§ rather of praise thau of ceusure.

If it became necessary, he would at the proper time move that the fine be Is instead of £20. • Mr Weston considered that although Mr Gisborne might technically be guilty of contempt, he was really only endeavouring to obtain what he deemed he was entitled -to—an appeal to the Speaker and House on the Chairman's ruling. He thought that the authority of the House would be sufficiently indicated by a fine of one farthing. Mr Macandrew, with great pain as au old friend and colleague of Mr Gisborne's, felt bound to support the Premier's motion. Whether right or wrong, the authority of the chair must be supported. Mr liussell said no one could possibly say Mr Gisborne had intended any contempt. He had only sought to have a question of the highest constitutional importance decided by the highest authority, instead of simply by a chairman. He | could not adjudge Mr Gisborne guilty of contempt simply for seeking to test an unprecedented question. Mr R. Wood held Mr Gisborne had not committed any contempt. He had simply controverted a ruling which he deliberately stated was a con trover tion of the Standing Orders of the House. All' that Mr Gisborne had done was to seek the opinion of the Speaker on that ruliug. If he were adjudged guilty of contempt,! no member would be safe from the caprice of any Chairman. Mr llollestou said the question had now to be dealt with, and it was a question of dry fact, apart from whether the hon member for Totara chose to make himself a martyr. Mr Collins said his vote would be given against the hen. member for Totara. He felt that his vote would lose him his election ; but.the hon. member had broken the standing rule of the House, and had been guilty of a serious offence. The question was put that the Premier's motion stand part of the question, when a division was called: Ayes, 46; noes, 27. The motion was carried.

THE DIVISION. Ayes (46): Allwright, Andrews, Atkinson, Bain, Barron, Beetham, Bowen, Bryce, Collins, Colbeck. Dick, Driver, Fisher, J. B. (Buller), Fox (teller), Fulton, Hall, Hamlin, Hirst, H. (Wallace), Johnston, Jones, Kelly, Kenny, Lerin, Macandrew (teller), McCaughan, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Pyke, Kichard- I son, Rolleston, Stevens, Stewart, Stud- | holme, Button, Swanson, Trimble, Wake- ] field, Wallis, Westou, Whitaker, Whyte, Wright. Noes (27) : Ballance, Brown, Fisher, J. T. (Heathcote) (teller); George, Gibbs, Grey, Harris, Hurst, W. J. (City of Auckland West); Hursthouse, Hutchison, Levestam, Mason, Moss, Pitt, Reeves, Reid, Russell, Seddon, Sheehan, Shepherd Speight, Taiaroa, Tawhaia, Te Whero, Tole, and Wood. ; The Speaker directed the Sergeant-at* Arms to summon Mr Gisborne, who, on making his appearance was received with applause. The Speaker then addressed him to the foil jwiug effect: It is with no feelings of ordinary regret that I see before me in your present position a man of your past career. The distinguished services you have rendered the colony are well known to all in the House. By the faithful discharge of the duties devolving upon you in respect of - those services you have risen to the very highest offices of the colony. 1 have seen you, sir, frequent-, ;ly sitting as a member of this House on i these benches, and your conduct has ordinarily been that of dignity and decorum. I have alio seen you, sir, occupying a seat on the > Ministerial benches, and in other capacities you are well known,to have occupied positions of honour and trust. In connection with the Government of this assembly it ig expected a gentleman of your knowledge and experience, would set an example to the House, more especially to the younger members of the House. It is therefore with extreme regret I find you occupying the position you now do. If we are not to look to you to uphold the dignity of the House, then I fail to see to whom we are to look for that: The House has taken a more lenient view of your ease than all the facts of the case might, under he circumstances warrant. The decision arrived at by the House in your absnnco is that you, Mr Gisborne, have been guilty of wilful disobedience, and has thereby declared you to have been guilty of contempt, and a penalty of £20 is recorded against you. The peualty is payable at once, and until it is paid you are not | permitted to resume your seat. The I Clerk is instructed to retire in order that 1 immediate payment may be made. Until payment is made, you can retire from the House. .Mr Gisborne said he would not be considered wanting in respect to the House, or respect to the Speaker, in making a word ;of comment upon the observations with which he had been pleased to accompany the decision at which the House had just arrived. His own conscience fully acquitted him of all intention of obstructing the business before the House. He was actuated in the course, he had taken by no other motive than a desire of enabling the House to get at the consideration of a subject which he believed the ruling of the Chairman: of Committee distinctly promisedMr Gisborne then retired, and was loudly applauded in doing so. The Speaker said that before leaving the chair he would avail himself of the opportunity for making a few observations on the transactions of the last 48 hours. During the whole of that time no progress whatever had been made with the business, the bill in committee not having been advanced ft single step.- He felt perfectly ashamed at. the manner in which the business had been obstructed. He mentioned, t.hs matter principally with the viefr of assuring lion members, and jn order that there might be no mistake made again in - supposing that there was no power by Which a deadlock of this kind could be released in the exercise of that power. He for one would not flinch from the discharge of the duty entrusted to him.