Evening Sitting.

Thames Star, Volume X, Issue 3400, 14 November 1879, Page 2

Evening Sitting.

The House reassembled at 7.30.

Mr Seymour moved the second reading of the Awatere Shearing Reserve Management Bill, the motion beiDg carried.

THOSE TEIEGBAMS AGAIN. Mr Macandrew drew attention^ to a grave breach of privilege. Copies of telegrams had been laid on the table that day, and he wished to know how they had been come by. They could only be sot from the Telegraph Department, and that, to his mind, was a violation of the system. He moved that they be withdrawn, and that a Committee be appointed to ascertain as to how these copies were come by. Mr Hall said that tins was not the first instance in which copies of telegrams had been produced in accordance with, an order of the House, and n hen it appeared to the Government that it was judicious to do so. In support of that content.en, lie quoted from the records of the House. The telegrams alluded to were not considered to be of a private nature, and paid for by the sender. The right to frank telegrams was not given to Ministers to carry on their own private correspondence, but to carry on the public business. When the copies were called for, the late Government did not dispute but that they were public property } what they did, was to dispute that any Buch telegrams had been sent. If they looked upon them as private communications, the time to raise the question was when they were called for.' In using tha tele* graph to the extent they did during the

Ks3CC2£lZXXlße%£^fl^pa^ftij!**^*.?*! — ■ m ■ im iin ■■■■MM.——— WB£ lato elections, they were guilty of a gross abuse of public confidence. Sir George Grey contended that a mere inspection of a telegram of this kind would show whether they were private or not. If, on inspection, such a telegram, manifestly private, had been sent without being prepaid, then the minister sending it, should be called upon to pay it. The Government had no right to make the contents of such a telegram public. If a mistake of the kind was made, it was a mistake-on the part of his private secretary. II c complained that unfair proceedings of this kind had been too common.

A list of the amounts paid for advertising was produced yesterday which ought to" have been produced alongside of similar lists of sums paid by previous Governments. .The. return should have been made extending over a fair period of time. He complained that unfair means had been resorted to by the Government

to keep back papers, the production of

which would tell against them. It was outrageous that his private correspondence should be violated in this way, simply because his private secretary made a mistake in sending the telegram, franked. Replying to Mr Montgomery, Mr Hall said that the cop'.es were asked for by Mr Saunders 3 weeks ago, and from that day to this nothing had been said about any objections thereto. ■■• . Mr Montgomery said that this was a-"*»: very dangerous precedent that was attempted to be established. If it was thought advisable to have these copies they should have come through the Speaker and not through Government., Mr Gisborne argued that the telegrams in question idioulri have been treated as private telegrams, and as such they had no order irom the House to lay them on the table. AIL the Government could properly do under there circumstances was to have called upon the sender to pay for their transmission. He denounced the whole transaction as an attempt to prejudice a public man in the eyes of the country. Their production had been called for by a question put by an hon. member, whereas a matter of such great importance should have been debated on a motion for the production. , .....

Mr Stewart contended that the production was outside of the request as made, which was that copies of telegrams 'sent by the Government should be produced, whereas the replies to these telegrams had also been laid on the table.—Mr Hall said. that the telegram i 1 question having been paid for by the public,. Government having treated them as public property and coming within, the demand for production. Mr Stewart went on to say that the Premier had told them that he had just seen the original of those telegrams in the office, so he assumed that he had taken upon himself a roving commission to look through the correspondence passing through the Telegraphic Offices. In that view of the case there would be an end to

the secrecy of the system, and a. violation of the obligation taken by the Officers of the Department. Conduct of that kind on the part of any Government was most reprehensible* and ought to be most severely reprobated. * Mr Saunders scocted the idea that

public documents paid for by the public money could be called private documents. These documents were called for by the, hon. gentleman whose election had been prejudiced by those telegrams. The doctrine laid down about calling upon the sender to pay for them was similar to that of the thief, who when found should get off with simply paying for the value of the property stolen. No gentlemen of high principle would hare used the wires as had been done by the late Premier for the purpose for which they were employed. So smart was the leader of the Opposition to get the stoppage of telegrams out of the: way that he took possession of them and kept them, so that he (Mr Saunders), although he called for them, had not an opportunity cf seeing them. ■.-"'...■.

Mr McLean contended that in 1871. copies of telegrams had been produced to the order of the House and there was no

reason why the same coarse should not be pursued now. It was necessary for the parity of Government that productions of this kind should be made. The member for Waitaki had spoken in glowing language about certain members baring enjoyed the perusal of the contents of these telegrams. He would admit that he did enjoy their perusal, and he .was quite btire the public would enjoy them when they were published. He did not believe these produced were anything like.the number sent during the late election. He knew of his own knowledge that similar telegrams and letters too from the late Government had been spread* all over his (.Vfr.McLean's) district. V

A question here arose as to the produo- - tion of the papers, when the Speaker Raid that he had impounded the papers, and would not allow them to be perused until it was decided whether or not they were to be withdrawn.

Mr McLean went on to argue that baring been paid for by the public, the documents were public property. If tho House decided this motion in the negative, then for the future Ministers would be chary of interfering in elections. A lesson of this kind would be wholesome, and one likely to operate beneficially in the future.

Mr Sheehan denied that a similar case occurred iv 1871. The House woujd not have the telegrams produced "on "that occasion. If all the telegrams paid for by the public were public property,-why was it the public had not got possession of the telegrams about the new Loan P If Mr Saunders had meant to raise this

question fairly, he would have brought it forward hy a motion, and not by a question. Amongst the telegram 3 produced, there were those marked " private and confi-

dential," and on that account alone they ought not to have been treated as public. He was quite sure that if they went back upon the doings of previous Governments, it would be found that if this use of the

telegraph was an offence, it was of very long standing. He wanted to know by what authority these teJegrams had been produced. He would submit that not even a Minister of the Crown had a right to call

upon the Telegraph Department to pro* duce these telegrams, and hating done to, the act was a flagrant violation of the law therein made and provided. The essence of the telegraph was its complete and inviolable secrecy. He maintained, the Government had gone bejond the question asked; inasmuch as they had pro* duced telegrams from private persons, as well as telegrams Rent by the late Minis* try. Sir George Grey had told them that the despatch of these telegrams was leftto his private secretary, and he should huve an opportunity of proving that fact in Committee.

Mr Wtkefield Mid thai when the ittfc*

ject was first mooted the Government of the day got up and stated Hint the Whifc-move-Inglis telegram was tho only one sent at ihe public expense. JNow, Lowever, it appears that there were a «vcat many more. Not only had Mr Snunders come to the House with a strong feeling that his election had been interfered with by the then Government, but ho (Mr Wakefield) had that feeling as regards his own election. The great wrong done wa* that the late Government should have used its influence* in these elections. Calling for the production of these telegrams was the only way that they could get at the fact of this interference havina taken place. It had boon said that no law existed authorising tho obtaining of these telegrams. The lavr was that tho sender was entitled to copies of telegrams sent, and us they were sent by the Government the Government certainly had a right to obtain copies. Ho was sure there was nothing in the. whole affair to create all the argument that had been attempted to be raised. He was sure himself that when he got hold of them ho would simply get a good hoarty laugh, and then they would be forgotten Ho would support the proposal for a committee—a fair committee, and one that would bring out all the facts of the case. "'

Mr Moss contended thaf. the information was not complete; they ought to have been put in possession of the instructions given to the Telegraph Department as to the production of the telegrams* Major Atkinson said Government was prepared to accept the suggestion for the appointment of n ommittee. The officers of the Department had simply done their duty and produced thcdocunieu' they were instructed to do, and it was most unfair to blame these officers for having done what they were bound to do. If there was anything wrong, the Commissioner of Telegraphs was quite prepared to accept the responsibility. In pursuance of what he had already slated ho would move an amendment that the committee be iustruc red to enquire as to whether the production of these telegrams is contrary to law, and also ascertain the total number of telegrams sent and re ceived by the late Government in connection with the late election.

Mr Hall said the statement made by Sir G. Grey, to the effect that his instructions to his secretary were that all telegrams of this kind should be charged to his private account, he believed was absolutely correct. He denied however that it was customary for private secretaries to decide what telegrams should be paid for, and what should be franked. The Government had acted in this matter under advice.

Sir George Grey said that the Premier, having made use of a private telegram, he would take legal advice as to whether or not ho could punish him for the act. It was a dishonorable act, and one of which the Premier ought to be ashamed.

Mr J, T. Fisher had no hesitation in stating the secrecy of the telegraph system had been violated. Odd of his telegrams had been produced which had not been fairly copied, and as regards the others it would take a big stretch of imagination to Bay it was on election purposes. Mr.Macandrew agreed io accept the amendment, and did so on the understanding that the telegrams would bo withhold pending their disposal by the proposed eommittce. The motion as amended was then put and carried, andlhe following was elected the committee :—Montgomery, Saunders, Turnbull, Wakefield, Gisborne, Pitt, Bowen and Macandrew. ELECTIVE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Sir G. Grey moved the second reading of the Elective Council J3HI. He said as things at present stood there wore put into.the Council men representing large monetary interest, and these men influeuced the Legislation in a variety of ways. They were placed in a position to make Ministries and do other acts calculated to subvert the public policy. As things stood there was no redress for the wrongs a nominated body mi&ht inflict. They might remain in their chamber all their life* and let them do what they might to obstruct the general good they could not be removed. They came back year after year to repeat the wrongs they had already inflicted and there was no redress. The practice followed there, was that when certain individuals lost their seats in this House they were called to the other chamber. They were able to create great interests, which it would take years to destroy. He believed the whole Colony felt thai it was monstrous that a number of gentlemen having no special fitness or claims should have such powers conferred upon them for life, and that the general desire was that the Chamber should be thrown open to Her Majesty's subjects as a whole. He had thought over the subject, and to his. mind an Elective Chamber was the only, solution of the difficulty. What he proposed was that both islands (should be looked upon as great Elective Districts. He proposed that the Council should consist of 25 members (that was based on the numbers provided for by the neighboring colonies) that was 22 Europeans for both Islands, 2 natives for the North, and 1 for the Middle Island. It would be impossible for any man to be elected who did not j bold a pood position in the estimation of j his tfl^bjf men. The House of Representatives would tv present local interests, while the Upper" House represented law and interest.. The Upper House would be a great power in the country, ns by that means legislature in accordance with the views of the people would bo secured. Mr Jlolleston said that there was no demand on the part of the country for a change of this kind. Had any such change been required, they would have been sure "to have heard, something about it. He showed that a constant change had taken place in the argument that its members legislated for life. He disputed the theorythat the colony desired to see this chamber abolished. But for the actiou of the Council, the Public Works Policy of New Zealand on moro than one occasion would have been a serious failure, and in that respect they had fulfilled the important function of checking hasty legislation The proposal was in his opinion a step in the direction of the separation of the two Islands, and therefore he hoped it would be discouraged. Mr DeLatour spoke in support of the motion.

Mr Thompson moved the adjournment of tho debate when the House rose at 12.30 a.tn. _________