The Abolition Debate Resumed.

Thames Star, Volume VII, Issue 2060, 11 August 1875, Page 2

The Abolition Debate Resumed.

iJ>"|!i&s£-A : '..; -'■ '■' • '-\ ; s.:Wp.ni. ; f*Oa-^wipJEK)U hse resuming iat -: 7.30, the gallerips; were all densely crowded. .^vSic-George. Grey rose amid considerable .applause. He eommenoed by announcing that this was a very great occasion, pile upon which all • should acquit themselves as well as possible. It was an occasion upon which the Governments were; about to sweep away the Constitution by illegal .and unconstitutional means.; ■>. Tp clear away all doubts ;Ue "would " say, we have .been, termed Provincialists, but were really : upholders of a great and magnificent edifice, which was .being thrown :fdown and scattered about, the ground column here and the pillar there. ; That wa3 an image of Proyincialism .at present. That grand building must either be restored to its pristine yigpur, and beauty, or, pise jt must crun)ble aj^ay. Two eloquent speeches on his side of the questi|6ft had been made pn the Government benches, one by the Treasurer, aud the other by the guide and prpteclbor of: the Ministry, the member for Timaru. ■; (Laughter.) . The hon. gentleman? then proceeded to relate the history of granting the first Constitution to; New Zealand, which was at a period when the savage enemy was close to the present site of Wanganui. Upon his sole responsibility, aud wiitoufc jjoun-

sel or advice, he took upon, himself what few men would have done, and sent back home that Constitution and all documents connected with it, and then they got their secbnitCJ^nstitution, and there was not a; single' claTJi&in that Constitution that be: did npt£ ponder, and brood ofibr, and=*lief Nook cpupsel from friends arid f6es alike.He daijed; not/ in the interests;!of; the peoplte o'f'N^W/Zealand, divulge his plans;; the resujltipf; his earnest considerations, but after-due deliberation and great care decided upon his plans, he sent them home, and he made bold to say that all and each of them were endorsed and approved of at homei with but trivial alterations. Let them cor pare the confidence he then exhibited with that disvplayed by the, persons-jaow subverting the Constitution. Let,;, him look on the Opposition benches, and he saw men whom any men might be proud to call colleagues, and who, he ventured to say, ; would never have landed them in such a position as the present men at the head of the Government had done. These men who, after having been buffetted on one cheek, turned the other to be buffeted also." He had been- taunted' about the power placed in the hands of the halfdozen fishing villages; but look what these fishing villages had become; how,: like heroes they had. sprung up to the^spur applied to; them.. Look at the roads with which they had ramified the country, often against an armed foe. Look. at .their .great: public works, and thriving tswns, 'and their mountains pierced^ Look at more than 3he could enumerate of. industry and enterprise^ and say had he unwisely entrusted the people of Wellington, Otagp, and Au.ckland in working out their own* design. He had been twitted with having- prepared the Constitution in a cottage, but he appealed to that same Constitution; and would ask them twhatiight had the country been defrauded of by that Con--stitution. Though prepared in a cottage^ look what had arisen under it. Look at the hall in which they now stood. Had anything ever proceeded out of that. House equal to what had proceeded from the Constitution? The^Treasurer_told theinie might havef repealed ;.the second sectiott pf the^'Gonstitutipn-Act, but he could inform that hon. gentleman that he j (Sir Geo. Grey) had issued a; proclaniar .-■ tipn a lew years after the. passing of the ! Constitution that repealed; ,'-fthat' septibni and yet that Minister offered to introduce a clause into the JAbolition Act repealing that section. He thought he then heard ■ a school; boy speak, .but. however he would accept that offer and allow it to go down to-all time as a s.tanip of: those : whp made it. Continuing on the illegality of course proposed by the Government,. he would say what he said before. The Government having once given, :the.rights to the people "could not take one iota away from them. .. The hon. member for Timaru, in contradiction of this, reminded, him of the case of Jamaica, and intimated he had kept that fact from the House; but he thought that memory and reason; had ;taken flight: from the hon. member for Timaru. If the Imperial Parliament; took away;one constitution from Jamacia,, it gave them another one, better adapted to the exigencies of their- society. Referring to the opinion of the Attorney-General, the present Chief Justice, whiph the Government sought to fortify their ■ action by, he told the House and Government that such a spectacle should never have been seen as the Chief Justice addressing a letter to the Minister of^Justice/: beginnings "My dear Bowen,'' or.my dear anything else. What he should have said wften asked for his opinion was;, " You have had my opinion as Attorney-General, if you want it as Chief Justice you must get it upon a bench of justice in a proper and Constitutional ,way.'' They were told Parliament always contemplated Abolition .by r .its action regarding the Westlahd Act; but he did not believe that, - and so great was his ; confidence in the Courts of Justice in this country that he belieyed : they would one day see the Attorney-General giving one j opinion, and the Chief Justice another totally different. "Grave Constitutional questions would, naturally arijie put of a case of that kind, and it would, be ruled by judges that the charters of the pro.-'. j tinces were charters of liberties. Turning to another phase of the case, he maintained with all possible deference, that ' the name of his Excellency should not have been coupled with a measure which was7an putrageous breach of maxim that the Government should never take away the liberties of the people in the smallest degree. He could not but raise a protest agaitisit such an unlawful; and -unconstitutional proceeding as selling the Constitution by t'ae number of hands held up at public meetings for the unlawful bribes held out for the people. Instead of this, why not refer the matter to the Superintendents, who were elected by large bodies of people, and who were their representatives. The Ministry were bent upon carrying this measure, through the neglect of the people of;,such men as. -the Premier of the : Colony, who stood for the Superinttmdency of Auckland, and had to retire like a,snail within his shell.:; ' The same with the Colonial Treasurer, who was also rejected by that > which he: would now destroy* but which he unconsciously argued so strongly in favor of.. Looking cound that Houso,: he found in it aglorification of the provincial.system. There were men. present who; would hare been great in the annals of any country, men who in the Provincial Councils paid more minute and careful attention to expenditure than'was ever seen in that House. (No, no.) I say yes. Tell him not such a tale. He would ask what had become of five hundred thousand pounds for purchasing land ? Where were the particulars regarding that expenditure? Where the private estates amassed, the fees, and rew|rds ? ) Why had they seen ono item alone of £98,000 paid for services rendered for the sale of debentures?. To whom was that paid ? Yet the Hon.. Treasurer had the bad taste to deal with, such a question by quoting to the House from a book called " Pig Philosophy," an extract couched in vulgar phrase, and unworthy pf^ the.»Hduse.; Thisiwas a great occasion, the greatest perhaps that; ever would be seen in the annals of this .country, and he hoped (speaking of that .pther branch of : the Legislature) thatj :if it was trjie to, its duties and allegiance to £he Queen, it woijld never cpnsent to such an illegal and uncpnstituj^onaj. sweeping away of the people's rights. Coming to the finanpial part of the scheme, the Hon. Treasurer told them jthere would be a deficiency on the present year. Two distinct statements regarding the revenue had been made, and be could accept which he liked, but the latter ho considered the true one, namely, that there was % deficiency, but

under the present system of account- ] keeping it was easy to make any. surplus you pleased. Charging constabulary cottages,;; arid, "one thing and another, loans enabled them to carry on a Surplus', from 'one year's end to another -It was an exception he maintained, and It would be found there would be a great deficiency j that, in fact, the Colony was a, lump of one end to the other. WKa^ mtfst.be the result of this Colony ? The people would soon find that they had been deluded, and that those deluding bribes held out to them would never reach^them, because it was; not in the funds of the Colony to pay them. Had a reaV politician and an able man declared the Financial Statement they might have .expectQd ; a plan showing a care and consideration to relieve the burdens of the people, but they had more taxes looming out before them. Now instead of that they had a perpetuation of the monstrous and abhorrent system which had now been going on for years;' Look how they proposed,; to treat :the miners =—-the real pioneers of the colony. In sorno respects sheep were pioneers, too, in clearing away the.\native growth. -Well, the Gpvernrueni; looked at miners and others in the same light, as only fit to be shorn— andalready. shorn too closely. ;He would boldly say that the real meaning of the. Government measure was the tyranny of class legislations. He had' been accused of endeavouring. to .create a demo- j cracy, but hie endeavoured to create a healthy -.' ?£nd ; intelligent .. Well, look wti&tMihey had now, and ijihat they might ;hayjeyhad, had a different course been adppted instead of the deluf; sire and ; fataV course they had'been pursuing. They might have had people instead of sheep; smiling homesteads with happy families, and well-cultivated farms,: instead of thousands of .acres owned by one person. They might have had a numerous, .happy, and contented community, able to support themselves and ': within? themselves,; without the borrowed millions and excessively high salaried officials.. ->.-/IfQ.> they .preferred,; with monkey-like _spirit of mischief, to destroy what: they could;?not :create-rto promise what they could not fulfil. Well, it was for these reasons he asked for some delay—reasonable, equitable, and absolutely necessary. }f; Let\ them but grant this most; justjrequest,- ;and; they might stay;. the: miscHef ■ and: calamitous consequences :|which must'necessarily arise from their present unseemly haste. (Loud applause.) " , :\] Vv ! ■: -Sit D. McLean.said that not eventhe most ardent Provincialist ever imagined the provinces Were to be a permanency; Thei continuing of.the provinces resulted, in an ,angry:^c6nteSt;ibr power. The : Assembly^ should^ have defined powers. The provinces atjxticblohyj were kept in a constant state*^|ponflict^r6ugh; Sir, G. Grey'sialarmT--having; been told that the Assembly^hadno• ppwer. had^uthority frdm vtheV pep^e.^(Loud : '<■ It cain c ' with? ojrer^hermip g . force •:, from the country.^?-(itipev^eiJ/;f cheeks.) fHe said tblat^prbv^i;^^ disappear locali^clf-■goveimment^^^'^tKe-'/jii^dpliß will have a potent voice in tfi^management'l of their own affairs. -It was ridiculous to Auppo^e that '•.-"settlement; was? created by; Sir Geo.; Grey's action in framing the.Constitntipß. The natural hardihood and euergy of - the people of 0 tagb jand Canterbury I alone induced the present results^ He admitted that a great deal had beeh: done by the. provinces in ..the early stages, but when': .the Assembly took up the scheme of colonisation the end of the provinces was near/ The consolidation of, loans was another great" blow. There was nothing now to dol for xaiiy% of the provinces. When provinces were in such a condition as Aucklandfwasadmitted to Be, it was better for thepeople that the pro-; vinces should cease: to exist. ;Their sleeping away would be treating'public opinion; as" it deserved,: which would make itself felt, one end or thq other. He reiterated the statement that a true. and correct statement of the finance of the. colony had been placed before them/, which the; ■.Opposition have, yet to admits it;to. be supposed the people..^ere not-to;: be consulted] : Were public meetings no criterion at all of the public feeling? He defended the Hon. Dr Polien, and said -his 25 years': devotion to the, affairs of the colony deserved respect. He : spoke to Major Atkinson's; previous experience as a Minister, and tp Mr Bowenj though young and; hew to* official life, he 'gave every promise of making a useful Minister,, and making his name popular. [Referring to Sir G. Grey's attack on reference to the Chief,Justice^ he denied that; the|latter was ever;asked to give opinion. He was going to twist wEat passed into communication between the Government; and the Chief Justice with ■'&■ view'" ofV prejudicing, vif possible, legal proceedings.': • With refer»; ence to*the credit of the colony, nothing more greatly enhanced that, and its stability thin the "Abolition of Prof vincps. One -united colony would do away with the fragmentary.divisioris for which no necessity now existed, and that end wasa sure result. .The provinces were always regarded by. statesmen at home as' extended munibipalities;' The Government'proposals were clear- and commendablo. The Government did not in any way pander to public sympathies. He was,, sorry ,to find an attempt; made now to -introduce class .-legislation. The Government proposals recognised class's Vyad regardedaU'equally. (Cheers.) : MrEeader Wood was received withlciud opposition cheers. He would nofeattempt to follow the tyro last speakers as tb _the ?wisdotn in tlie introduction of the original '.Constitution, as it had nothing to dP;with the present question. The legality' of the course pursued now was not exhausted. It had been treated with extraordinary, ability by Sir George Grey, and the very ( opposite by Ministers. Unless they showed \ they: were acting within the four corners of i the Constitution and Acts dependentpn ' it they were simply, wasting time. .; M»n-.; isters'and their supporters misinterpreted the Attorney-General's opinion, member must think, on the face of the Attorney - General's advice, there^ was culpable neglect, on the part of.the; Gbveriiment that? they did not take his ad vice. l' -He quoted Villiers' ppinion. as: to the power of -the.Assembly to ;dfeal with the question, and referred; to the past attempts :to: alter, the Constitution, which attempts were- invariably followed by legislation toset at rest doubts which? each attempt called into existence^ Now, mqre than ever;' it would be found that such doubts existed. The: Government!v proposals were bribes to-support central populations at the expense of thfe country.; If it was a question of abolition pure and pimple, his djity was, ple^r. If in the smallest degrpe the 'bill represented his: views then only was it a duty for him to vote for^abolition. But its fin{«ie©wa»S9

largely mixed tip wittt the^finances pf |he colony, and had so little connectioii-with, the abolition, that he must vote against it.; It must be admitted by the public at large and the House that the provinces totally failed to carry out their original intention. Vlf they; want/ifcijz, £^*|^ir financial condition a scandaLt^taVc^uiitry::; they need not go' to Auckland, they ;. could find that nearer home> Exactly the opposite was the case in Auckland. She was like a good man struggling with adversity. r ; He admitted: there iras.fora few.months a little derangement of Auckland's finances owing; to. the^Sjaperintendent's death The Auckland .iSf^rernment, after the interregnum, astonished the people by telling^thein^tne truths Theydrcw;^^in their reins, and^r|Essisted all pressure/and now what -was the case? Actually a credit at the bank; ~ The honi. Treasurer knew, nothing about it except. from the newspapers. Was^ the; Auct*> land province to be^held up aa aacandal when it had drawn in its expens||^St its coat according to its : cloth, {^ acted. like an ■>• honesty; man should;-act ? Supposing the ; province ;iadJ:; ■ been < unable to payVits wayv whose" fault > wais it P^The fault of s the Assembly mV reducinfj^ts" Custpnis Tevenuo firs¥J&6in five-eighths, then to three-eighths; then to the capitation grantf--r»rijmfc-^irlffr~' gradually reduced; to fifteen shillings. He ; told Southern members if they allowed this bill topass,if[they once allowed th« Government of this countiry to get their hands upon. 3heir^land fu%«, iSs^drely as > Auckland's sbiTO>«i^^asfc6m'* revenue hadt vAnishjidi^:-;.soTß^r^iWodd:"-the»--land;-'-v----pnd^6lf=Swept« infol^iiaeistwni^^, colonial finance. ---k;Tl^Jt>i]^iJfipi^l:;Biir"';:-"':' abolished : JnothingL /'bt^^iPrbvincial: Councils. ; Why not ; put*a vote on the 7;i estimates for subsidiai to road boards and and leav,e the bill till next > year, when «11 doubts mifht be settled^ |>n i the question of abolitioht Mr v7o6d continued criticising the high handedness 6ithe Government in saying the mauure was good, -whether conititutional Or not. But;if the Act was "dwUowed^bj Iftr f Majesty's f adviser^ wKd Ihe 5" reproach ? : The hon.^member; reriewedi the;;finance statements; o? >last iesti6ni> whe?t Mr ■Vogelswdr-7^WeiiaT^^fen^in ; the treasury to meet e^v^thmg-r^iiu^r^^ for the next j-ear,";but yrhen fe;mt|wi«i he fpund^bjejhadyo raissthree miUipni at pnee.: That; was decepfepn^i and clearly v indicated disaster looking ) y.. j year he expressed certain, views on aboli- -\ '£ tion. >Had.;thiE> billbeen^ ati^t in cpnfor-;; V mity with Ixe Ba^^fed^for ; it. The hpri. member then 'proceeded Ujtitk stateiin reply to tauht^i tiaith^^finan^ state of Auckland.--was- a, scan^alj^tliift^^ V Colony, that ;Withfall her:pp^r|y^ a^ats|| .as;: it-.' was^ i;she;";'6w^ds.Mpt¥a^sniniQg^y'^' cThere ; : was not; one unliquidated^ claim S against her, simplj^ becausefVwhen^ $bsiM real state .-of..:tneir'/"p^rse:::^wis =;:ascer^^;^ tamed they: jresblutely^^clStßdl&?to;?:| j incur liabilities ; cpialS ilmii -meet; is and ; :if -twas":'; eipipairrtosed}: it%as alone fault of-:&at^Hbjise^it^ Ms r>m. If^^ey^ passers the Al^itip^s rßiil in its present; • ftwrn; "it i :would;::pJfwaM;-:'% the colony into ajmaelsfe^mi'oJPfinancial;^^^ difficulties. i:;^jp)^siidl^^'-c^^ldii^»;- :;:i; Abolition j^slato- ; ting another name, thit of Provincial dis- 5 p . tricts;:y:Tj^ : a|atoo^pß(i^^'((^l^^ - still retaine^iy^^^iKe|^^ . Supjeriritenden^:^^tfi^3p^^ satraps^in of the®? General :'GdvemffientpFS|o-coifld not dl[s-i^ guise; from;him^e!£thlsf^ ■:the':;Bill^ was7.tai^^^^norm^|a^fi-: :invthe ■feTefiue^ s|w"'thati^pM|^ it would-throw t^ into inextricable/cpnfusiim. '^\:;:z~Mt£^Mls '.. ,:Mr Pyk^;r%retted/thV^ ' hot alhi'ays^co^yincing ar|^ent;Ei|wa|iS :so tl tat eveningi: s^.With:^tfo ; .^elo^iM^ displayed,; nptaing ;hadtbeen£«aob^^sl!f fluence a single jote in % fevor^^eijl^hg^^? instit^onsrr T^^ppsi^n^^ what it had rbeen • desciriDed; to^ibeiyears ; >;; agoby^hbn^n^ going to that ; country; vras dver-governsd^a^ a ridical C;l change was required; still^ith^all^ th« ig ? necessity for change^ he contended• tHiat;*s:#3 they^had borjoo the::;b^ cialism for 2OTyears th^yv'could/standitS}; six; months^longery *P: aS; I mistakeable^ voice: V :; them oh so; momenitpus a-q^SbpnM^He S i believed them; n6ti^::iwJ-\^^^'^no%;.f:§) afraid of th<^ why not waiti for i£;:.VJBCe hoped; the Gp^ y^ irernlirie:ritv;;;ro^^ good Prdvincial 6n|e ? ; 1 th^ :^adlatterly^altpgether^ hayiug degenerated;into.ceniraliftt*.of the;^^^ :■; worst kind. vAsianiinstMCei discoveredf in :Gabriei's;;Gul^iQi|^liS >: and it was 1874 before^ the?main:roaUrjt6 :|:;

that place was completed As for aU ; the; =;; clap-trap they^ hadvhea^alioiiitr ;swrtpmg ■€'.■ away the Cpnstitutionj ifcSwas ;aimnly; t; making a fetish of iti AY; fp£ Superm- J tendents representing large vnunibers^f ;; vjpeople^ach had only on%TOte|mt;thbS; Executive"' : Councili / iand ;:nO ■ ;^, a member representiug ioitily few 'electors^ I'^^^^ Ghairmah of ' ~an ;f Executive^^uncit^fi ; ;Hei; ridiculed : the ;■;■ idea,,;,of;v IS pwt|^3ea-v^ lat:4 <;colonists»:b'eingfera|^do^n-trpddeii : ;..; :,^>t;-': /rjOneibf.;:; :the:;cmef v;(re"aso^gw|«clvv:v '.made\iWm\' ;^ clauses relating to the''land fund ; without; ■; those provisions lie would /oppose l it: tooth « and-nail. To dp otherwise would; be,; ; aidingj^pudiatipn. , had: been:broken in; niahy e^sentiai^poiWs^ but the laststarid muit nowibe^made tpj; c preserve 1 the honor andr creditsof;g;th|f& Colony. He trusted ;;eyery^imi|^er :^ the House, including sir jGeoj^ assist in making;the Bill; a,/complete ;i(ud,^^ ■ be'neficial;measureTv,';;:::::^v'; -: l::^.^_ '.^ Mr' ThoE^fc&H?ih a^lc^spc^cik strongly: ;t opposed, the Bill, which; he said; shouldt 3 have been^brPUghtdownJ^yl^:^ for. Timaru^i ■■: ■ Slin wtry p\tghfc^O^iw-e'¥; resignedanij allowed Mi^ Staffbrd; toTOrmS S a lie w Ministry • and- iatrpducei; the Billfe " 'He twitted tlie Jwith having W: originally takep•■■■office: as ?cpnservers of;;S Provin^aUsi^nd npw they chan^ minds 'aUd; coolly asked" the restlbTthe ?; Housed to change their minds also- and i

follow•them.v;' The hon. gentleman cbhdemnedifche^management of Public %orksi of ■finances;; ajnd :-M-[ the^; way; Ministers neglectedtheirofficial duties^ tod generally; reiterated the leiadingvarg^^^ against the Billib^ Opposition membi§rlj. Mr O'Connor moved tlie adjournment -qf the •Hbiise;'at.l2:a 5;" $£$£$£$%%s*&* ; ':