THE THAMES REPRESENTATIVES ADDRESS THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

Thames Star, Volume VII, Issue 2004, 7 June 1875, Page 2

THE THAMES REPRESENTATIVES ADDRESS THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

. .Messrs Bagnal], Carpenter, Brown and; Dairies, members of the Provinciai'Coun-!

cil, r addressed.,. tkeir t, constituents onj Saturday evening in the Academy of ..Music. ■ The {attendance^ was >^cry/good. A little after the Hour of 7 o'clock Mri Macnab was elected t6~- the chair on the.motion of Mr John Gibbons. * / !

' The ! Chairman introduced the 'firft' Bagnall, in, the ; »sual manner,! and stated'that all four would be happy' to, answer any questions which the; meet-; ing might think proper to put. j

:»;,-.Mr L;';J».i:BagnaJ^<iaid',it wasnerointhe history, of the Thames for representa-^ tiyes to come^before their^ constituents' to[ give ah account of the manner in whichi they had conducted. themselves inr.that;

capacity. He believed he'had ihe honor! of being" the first to do this. He had no; hesitation, in doing. so,Jbecause, thought his actions may. not have been off great moment, he had been ac^ tuated by a sincere desire to pro-! ' mote _ the interests of * the ' Thames j District. He felt confident that anything! 'he had done as their representative might: be sifted to the utmost, without ,there| being found anything which would' interfere with.his character; p. He believed; it to be desirable that they should come] before their constituencies, /because,! though different in relation, their .interests were identical; 'jMrißagnalK then; continued to say' that he would review a! few of *.the most important: matters thatf had come before' the last session of the! Provincial/Council.' They were' very) few. The first was the address of the!

Superintendent made- in Opening the! session. There could be no two opinions 'about*that address. ':''■ ••-•lt' was anable production, marking^the statesman! and clever politician. 1 j He-clearlj pointed; out the position in which vthe Proyince stood,-and no very^enviable' position heshowed it to be ; but he had been^careful. not to mate any suggestion as to'how that could,be altered: and jthis he (Mr Bagnall) considered "the w^ak' point' in Sir George's address.. It .might have! been policy which' induced him not to divulge his ideas before, the-meeting of; the General Assembly,l blithe thought: the proper course to adopt ; would have; been to point out a way to overcome the; difficulties with which the Province was sur-! roiihded.ln'which "case Tie would, to the speaker's: |hinkingj,: have - shown; 'himself, a still more clever politician and a better; statesman. It rwquldf not have affected, his position in the" Assembly. .The next; matter was, the Financial Statement.of the! Provincial Treasurerj Mr lleader Woocjjf who placed the financial affairs of the! Province in an exactly-true position. Mrj Bagnall went over fvaeveral important! itemflin the state^cH^showing that the* ;MM'mpii(^oyote^7f(sic??fiew works-^had •Iwel|je6dp vfor the^Tßfij*iia Goldfield, that' a^hejTe.venue: Wjis;ab?orbed inimaintain-' ing tlie; Government,\ and all th»y had; was tbJe'bahL-o^(||aft,-, with power to; go to' the 'ext^if^of": ''in;.-, connection with the' Statement there wasqne ,itep.he;..had, called' for wh«n the.' appropriation ract-wa's before,lhe. Councils •The estimated revenue of the, "Thames was^fromsgoldi. £6,000;; from publicans' licenses and other sources, £2000; making a total of £800Q.-r Out of this the, Thames had only 'received £1500 for tbe! ensuing six months. The Thames was deprived of over £2000 of their actual; right. The speaker, next referred to the Pumping Association grant; relating tlie circumstances under which it was originally obtained (and with which all .readers of "the local Press will by this; -time be acquainted);' It s wa» 'mentioned by the Superintendent in his 'opening speech as being a subject whichshould claim the Council's consideration. JNo steps were taken', however, and at last Mr Carpenter gave notice of a motion for appointing a committee to enquire into tap. matter and report, the notice paper characterising the. conduct of the General Government as reprehensible. The notice was given without consulting the other goldfields members, and when he (Mr Bagnall) saw;it,;h'e:sugjg*st^|9 l-l!^r;earpenter that he should withdraw it,; and let the' matter be brought forward in the usual manner. The Committee was appointed^ but during the. time for drawing up; the report Mr Carpenter was on the Thames. Mr Header rWood asked rhim (Mr Bagnall) about it, 'stating that'iit was;proposed to close the session on Friday, and that it would notdb to lose time. Tinder these circumstances he gave notice of motion that prompt provision sheu'd be

made for payment of the balance of'the £50,000 to the Pumping Association ; but the Committee were ready in time, and brought, up theirreport There had been gome-difference of opinion about this matter., -iliaopinion was that there was no occasion for such an amount of anxiety and trouble,; and .that there had neverbeen the slightest: danger of their not getting itv / With regard to what he-r called fancy- motions for placing sums;; on the estimates for different districts, he had-; moved "none,. because j there ho money forthcomings He j then; referred to his motion anent the ':;:aboUti6lo^'ef::shie\prpvinces^'X3bj3SaelTng' j that theJProvince required'loans to keep IHI going); {hat forty members were called j to transact business which might be performed "by a highwayboard; tlacf"tKey Had no money* and were as .one member had said" a lot of dummies," the best thing, as it occurred to his mind, would be to sell the whole thing up. Acting on this impression, he had brought forward the resolution which they had seen. v In still sticking to these .views .he did not think it, would be said that he, and those ;whb ihad voted With him, had any desire to throw opposition in the "way of j the Superintendent. That was the cry' raised. "It was done to ; trammel the hands qf .the 1/: r .(Mr Bagnall then read an extract from the .opening, speech of, Sir George,! in which he expressed his' desira to act in accordance with the wishes? of .the-bulk /of the people.) From that it was natural to assume that the Superintendent would wish to iknow : what' the' 7 'opinion of the people #as, and he (Mr Bagnall) determined to put his. motion to the test He carried it. He admitted the motion was carried by accident. But he knew the majority of the members were opposed to the perpetuation of provincialism, because the motion to rescind his was carriedrby/a majority of one, and he had beeniafterwards told by fine of those who voted, for-it, that he was in. favor of abolition, "and 'that was the member" (not being present ©n the former day) whose vote had rescinded ;his , (Mr JBagnall's) motion. Four members were induced to be absent,; and it *was through their not voting as they ought to. have done, that the mbtion'was lost. v If fehey^the Thkinls) were left to'their ibwirresources, and got the £1,500, the -Thames people could their qTrn.afikiri,'as4relL'as^those. in,' Auckland, j; Arid'^, althQUgh^tlije^General Gbvernmeiit was a •' sink of^cb'rruption^' the JProtvincial Council was bad alsbV. and; ■ if-thjey "did away,with; one -they^wbuldbei better off than if they had two. It Wfts! the men they elected that caused; the; ihstitutious to be, bad.. -They wanted* honest men,'and not those who would not; come near you for five years, promise in! pne direction and vote in another,, In: this respect they were;wprseoffthan'they! would-be under an autocracy. He supv posed it would be considered necessary that he, should,rofer to the.much-tallced-of Goidfiejds . (Laughter.) "I am not afraid to go into it, mind you."' (Hear.) The ,; first he knew, about it was: shortly after■•<; he ; Jwasi elected^ He was: asked, if- he- was going in.for it. He had no idea of ifc at the time, but answered that if he thought he could >-be, of .service to the district/^he; would do so. He would not say he would: not take it, because he believed that any-? one holding' the position would be able to: benefit the district, and he might also benefit himself. It 'had been said that' the office would be offered to him. It: had also been stated^ oja behalf of the Superintendent that it 'was &~sihe qua non. At the same time, he . (Mr ißagnail) hadi always said^ that if any other member w,as thought better iStted'for the position,! he would support him. He believed that' a, Thames. representative should,-have a 'say in the distribution of the moriey.-i And although it, had .been that thisi billet was held but as a. bunch of carrots; before, all the provincial donkies, no one! could say that-he had given a vote \o catch ifc. Hia action was ; more against the Government than in favdr of it, and he had-been told not to move his tion in favor of abolition because he would! nqt getjthe billet*;; but he was prepared to do it when the time came. He felt every; confidence that" the spublie" would support him. > ■<?Mr Carpenter, on coming forward, was received with cheers. He said he was .aware -that a—representative could notcarry out the duties devolving upon himj without offending; some, or acting in^W 'measure contrary to their views. It iwas* possible, that he had given., offence' -'"to some among his constituents. If so he; was sorry, -but trusted he would be able! to show'that he had been actuated by an! honest desirej to serve -them. :VA large amount of abuse%ad been levelled at him.. !H« had been maligned by the Press, and; he thought it due to himself to go over what he had done, incthe.session previous; ito. the last.. - He,had intended to call,a; ,ineeting then, but had been inducednofc: to do; so;v;byrone who had;passefr ; away-~\ Swan. He -had wished - since that he" •had done ,' so, ,becau«e r?. all: ■ matters would then, have been fresh m their/ memories.; When. tho-jcandidatea; were .elected there were exacted from' them .cerfc*ain,promißea ; pr partial pledges. Hj9/:thjp%hfr >he could »ay that;, every. prof mute j^p|!|by him c had - been' fa|d^iilly! :kj^?'^^Bngst \the premise gf^&cl^by ;c^i[j|idii|fe|iwas'-to;'snppb;rt- sec^larfeiys-; tern" oiPeducatidn; hV also at:?i]|9-same; time fbelieved Provincial institutions! should be abolished. He did not say when, or how, but that when it took' place something better should be put in ; their.place! (Before proceeding to speaki of this matter, which, as he saidj b»l6nged more particularly to' the debate : of last session, Mr Carpenter then detailed his actions in the Council since his election as a Thames representatiTe)..' He had seeure&ivthe alteration' ;iiiv'the Waste lands Act in favor of the miners; and had used his be_st. exertions in obtaining the grant for the Waiotahi road, in! having a range constructed v/forrthe volunteers! of .the district, in sec.uringj JBlOjOjX) to|||he cause -of education,; | and Mother • ?snatters. •"; His ~; statements were received); with . demonstrations of approval). Mr Carpenter then" referred to the Goldfields^- Secretaryship. .An' article which appeared in' the'EvENlNa I Star said ,that the members .had!, acted without consulting one;another. I There was a reason for that, so-far as he was concerned. And he now? came, to the vexed of the ;.Gpldfield»; Secre-' taryship. The joapers :had charged him f ripht and left that, because he had acted in a manner which, did not meet with j their approval, ho had acted so because .he wanted the billed "it had even beect ! said'that jh'e r would take it without pdrtfolio, or without : salary, .'or anyhow he could get it. But ho had never intimated "to any one that! he wanted the Goldfieldsi ! Secretaryship. He had tried to get it for

! Mr Swan so long as .that.rgentlemanlired. Tyro gentlemen —'Mr 'Morgan, of Shortland, and Mr Adlam, he believed, was the _otherf-had seen Mr Swan a day or two before his death", and he had told them, that he (Mr Carpenter) had done that for him up to that time. This was the position, according to his views. "^Vhcn they* WQnt.up to Auckland for a day or two in iDecemberj ,^873, it was intimated that the Government would be prepared to carry out the suggestion to appoint a Goldfields Secretary if the merabers/would nominate ona; ifiemselyes. Ho.; (Mr Carpenter) nommated Mr Swan at once. There w??c abolll^fiW"pi-esenf at "the time, and'lVfr Brqwh seconded the nomination. All the others were silent. He did not know at the time that Mr Bagnall been asked by some perons "hefe'td accept the..ofiice,, and had-volunteered to support- ; Hifli.'" Off'returning to the Thapes~he was told that Mr Brown had signified his intention :of accepting' it, but he 'subsequently I said .he ;wpuld not, ' and : recommended Mr Bagnall. About a fortnight' after; at tneV second meeting of the Council the goldfields ;memb«rs held a caucus meeting to discuss their course-of action? They flat down, and he suggested .for _a subject the rifle range V; It. would not do. He asked, " What shall- we discuss then 1? *^ and it was said, "Let us discuss the Goldfields Secretaryghip." (Laughter;) When the Executive had, spoken j about the matter, he (Mr" Carpenter) 1 answered, 'f So: long, as you "do. your duty; to the Thames, v attend" to 'all' matters prbperly, and';be careful to'•'answer correspondence, X care aot whether you appoint .a/xoldfields. Secretary orinot."' I shall never disturb "you, if youiemain in your places until yp:u are grey." That was all he had had to 'do; with: the office up „tp, .that. t;me, which, he. had ; ; been changed with.- seeking so. earnestly. .(Mr Carpenter then applied, himself tc :th'e work of the Session,' and criticised'Mi Bagnairs.figures. He read,o.v«r a numBer bf i^ems, showing' that the* 'receipt! ,instead;of ybejng .£15.0?, > as r .Mr Bagnal had stated; were"^^^:'" 'Mr;'Carpehte: sreyie.wed.the. relation of.the .Thames tp.tht province since the birth of tlie Groldfie'ld showing by - a statement, .which he saic could be verified by the Provincial Ac Fcountant, that/jthe Thames ~ha;d ; receiye( £28i648 moreithanljtLbad produced,in tk( shape of revenuei); :^ HeTdid not say thal the Thames; hSd; reiceived?airit was en titled to from* capitation grants, thought they had not been wronged much, i He then referred to theiPumpinj Association. He had been flamed, bul all persons did not see>things in the same light, and he thought there was a possi bility of an adyers^Tbtej and .that whath( had done was the best thing to do under th< circumstances;^ lii^kan^;case,ithey cpnlq not: blame S him,: as; they^jb/ad^got.-th* money.^ He knew the country;^members wer:e jealous of the >T)iaimes,;.;and. "thai there was a strong opposition; to^th^e vote Seeing this he took the bull bys:thelihbrns : and nominated a committee?at oncej rather tfian permit any other to:nbminat< a committee. He jknew there was mucl] in connection .with; the agreement offensive to a great^nutnbirr of the members and he deemed it prudent to hide tht worst side of the matter, so, that he mighi place it in so favorable a light that th« Council would pass" it without opposition. With regard to abolition resolutions, he btliered if they had not-been rescinded, that the whole of those^ who wished to support the Province would have voted against the, grant. When Mr Bagnall .showed, him the resolution, .he said he would /move an amendment. .He would have don* so, and. intended it to ..be- similar to that „of Mr. Sheehan, but was asked by the latter gentleman to leave it'in his handsV which, he did. Mr Carpenter then•.-.■gave ]iis"-reason's for voting; in thattdirectiori.. He, was in favor of abolition, but "there had been nothing shown to take its place whiQh was better. He still naaintained. that the General Government- was; corrupt;-- and- he : was averse to throwing'lth«ir destiny, their future welfistre,~into the hands of such;• a foady, which he characterised as political carrion., I He referred tp- ?the f cbhduct of Dr Pollea , with.... rcferonce to the enquiry into I^ative 1 Land Purchases, and said if the purchases were conducted'in ; an honest manner the Government , would be willing to • h,aye| them" thrown open for enquiry. Instead 1 ■■: that "the representatives^ of -J lOO^Odo: people had received a telegram (which he; read) such, as- that, concerning agsubjecti which vitally affected their; interests.! The abolition scheme of Mr Vogel meant; the sweeping away- of all their land; revenue, the -Public 'IWorks j;Schemei having absorbed - everything else ;:. and if they (the Generals Government) got control of' thejland, the^^gld^jßweepi whole of.:-the -reven^S^aytEeiri coffers, and beggar thef^c^^i^;^(liri Carpenter was cheeredUutf&lpw^^lum-. rVjMr John Brpw.n saidvh^hM^^iipie^i >tibn of calling^ai meetmg/ :bSßausel||p thought that nothing of sufilcientiiconlfl' quence had transpired during the session; to warrant: hint in doing so;|ahd; he;. certainly;wbuld not have; spoken had he: not been alluded to by Mr in; reference to the^Secretarv; a^fir. ; Mr? Carpenter #as Iwrect '^PwHa^ he said; (Hear^-; The^flrst he;(Mr;Brown) knew: about it was-that the Governmen%then : ■existing;had ah animus againit^r Swan,' and that he had no chance of-getting that billet. The next was that Mr Bagnalfc would ..accept, it had it. been offered to s him. Mr Carpenter was 1 correot in stating that he seconded the proposition! that Mr Swan-should be:,thejnominee.; Be asked the Executive the of giving it to. <■ Swan,-: who^ he , believed,! was one of the. most honest politicians; that ever lived. ;He was told that hel would, "not get. vit.. : Oh>finding he ..(Mr vßrown) .would have accepted. the- billet himself,"' but •■was;^ onlyiof this; opinion for a" month •; or. two, after which .he supported Mr ?Baguair, because he 'thought Mr ;Swant wouldnot, get it j buitas ;the fesfc would; not. support Bagnalli he /proposed,.that: Carpenter and Bagnall; shouldtb/ss iip for; ift J ■ ;i(Hearty Slaughter,,, and; applause )| He thought it would be better that some * one should getiit than thatjthe matter; should be left in abeyance. He had no ambition for it, and was willing „tp. support any Thames member;:i '.-As ;the meetinghad bjjeji already/4eta.mod so/long," he woulol not keep them waiting, but -, wouldf simply glance at one or, two; ithings.r JOne-that Icame^ on for 4i?-J cussion was the gum;motion.of;Mr.Dar-! gayille'.; xHe/might state thal;;l;h^ whole, of tb/e TKaTaes'members voted /against,i|,v becau^{hey/consid<?red his positio^; ji&j tenabu, but it was carried by the majority: of tie Council; but he believed / 'the^ Geniral Assembly would scqjat; tbjevidea whei itwafc^rought: beforeStttem/; ; fMx yi ■.(■',' '■■'■■'■ •■;^.:.:-^' v-;:;'":iSfti v.

EeesV Income Tax waß<tke>nexlniatter. - ■He"(tbfp^jeaker) • wa«snot/itiwe^ttie/ .'■ division," bti.^he was of opinion- that! it" i was an .impor^inigu^snoii-'knd' pne'jtwhichi very soon? wouIK«!CCUpTMe' attentionhot only of the Provin«SSt{<s(Wincil, but of ithe whole eol6ny, wh en at' should -b^ dealt with by theiiGeneral Assembly!;f£&d\thafc should some extra; tax: become-riid^sary and it; wouldyihe/might .state^ttuit^he..■■'•>■: ..would-vote for. an -income^ ;t^jaf^a^^is^#'had- over £300" "a"' ''y eaj/^TKeI ■. jfep^dil^' / tb.uk be v tlirown-on thpfce.;bfßtable'tobear" i? it, 4 Bat that would/be ja'ttatter^Lbe^^ decided by ' future represetatiyes wtejl tft seivP to"■/Wellington. "The^oTj^ila^;; "portanfr; matter, was ..the Pumping ''W&Z-' sociat:i6nj,^rant'i- He f did i.otMwisli^ta;: reflect on the honesty 'of either of his ; colleagues: He" believed "they^M^fKa^; 'i they considered best. fpr,;the; rgbpd of the Thames. .' Still he must say he thought.: Mr Carpenter "had made a misjt&i ;'m /;,/ tabling; his .motion. >. For these), realoni^ ■ It appeared tptße^a/fbr^bri^^^ that theymust pet "money; t for- another, -:£v *n? -?x^^u^7e vrere in .a dileftn?a,haying paid away large sums of 'moiiey *witsout> being appropriated by the:;pouncilitt*nd ~\ they had to bring in a motionSto .ratify/?^ the action taken" by - the- Gbvirnmenti£T| Therefore it would?;naye been better td have let the Government introduce iC^ar they could 1 always, C(l^mantf^a?*j^ater v following thaniany for this : reason,/also* Kei. thought that ' Mr 'Oarpehter^ffiijjht* -haye' "■'o4i&_^{i suited his colleagues. Mr Bagnall thafe vthe^twas; no 'f«W^.' of the matter being slipped by, Thi:£J people fbf Auckland. ••were.ji rag'imiicii-;in?;;• f:-l terested ai the Tha%eli'arid^the?e if as' h"6 v v fear of la stoppage -of 1 •'Pumi* 'while "'-^ money was to WgOt frbrn? the^Gcneral Government. With regard:!;to the. quell- -A tipn, Ppoyincialismi :.y^ o Ge^trftlism.r h^ -^ coincidedtwitb; M**Ga]rp«htOTa|S toltlisJ ' wisdom of bringin-up theabolition resllnilif tions-at the time they were, because if4b« vote was in ., danger these resolutions would endanger it. Most 6$ tie Council " were"anxious that it should be gireni"amonglthemu strQQg; Mr. Bagnall must have known that the 1 Thhmesrfote would, g© with- .Gentriliim,; s^He; believed^ that KiM ?w^ Ml £ -* Sagnall^id; Teryflittle- good,sindlyer?J ; little harm. (Laughter). A reiblt^^ tion of ?the: go for-Tery^'^ittle^^Mttub^;iij^^3^:j:i their'minds in the GeneraliAis^biy^^d -i acted on their. convictions;-**lf -i*WsMx& tion concurred^wjilT^ir^ viewi/ KTj»nP? well; if^ not/ it wolld^jbe' ignored^H«i4 did xt^'iei^^^iO^yr^i^^t^i^^^. «fleoted by paps^nf^Q^; re»olut«mpl because' he believed that ■'Sir,-; G«diiSp^ althpugh a str&ng~PTOviE^iilii^^^ either abandon it^or' bo imjib*<i%^iif ||pl^ tfould no^.b^e known : foic tlje_ liiinl iffiiß^il that:,h"e ■■Centnlait/. ;The,lffi^i^ej^|fe^lrfl|^§H:£. ' Provincialism.- was; tooT^ondj*r^ a povertj^sl^uclc^institiition^pii^ forms of' thY Srm^:^atiam^MM;: they:"lw,d-x;tq,ido : jirar j&S<^"-\mxA^futo\ «abyhire,- p6JUce^c^|wgeß/j.e^|f^^ipT that not a singlfe^jpeiuffv fi.% would -ije :^;awiet'i:^^ the ■-ite^:rnsurily/(teked f^;mjpie.;f or-:'■ the motions made wjas^ ford, for a road: jn. Bombay settlement-— which was Highly necessary—and, as' ■ stated by Mr Carpenter, he got snubbed for asking for money wh'eii-tb^ cjbeit^ipi' ; empty. He (Mr^own^b^^n^Biidedib ask for this, that, and thefoth'eiMjum.^-Hft^ h'adt »^,w:e*kness for ■^^g^^(jaonn^,' ::}: But he saw; ho^tbin«afw«re^V^didi«. Sj He lbdked r upon •=."'the "i Council,,^^iildi^ei ■%■ thought of a six inch pump working^wii&tPl the united Pumpng Aisociltioitenpniß^^iy He did not say anything^of iftweGcwi^®? ;':They^WOTe::.able;^^iaiS^^ H.prised some of Jhe. best debating power lii the 'l^o^6^h^ iCMiii£i'il^-^ar^iS^^% ior,jexampleii r But he. lo^ed^upoptb^l^ Council as a place^fpr" gettiiig" ttonjeyi^J^ A whect tli^ii, nothing -wm, to M/got' ■ he kept silent/ { tApplause);f' Bfe^T^i i against Provincialism on thisiv^«msd|jjniii:^ he would hare left tho matt^ b^rap? f! he cared, not; whether .proyinciil instita* ~:: X':: tions^erelimprby^d ; "offllw^<^^ earth or something better placed; iv tKeltfcS stead./) InJ tbefietrlyj day»3 th%|:?w«a«S?ii useful, when the means of con^municlf^Mipiall;..over the;colony :^g'^so iiiiß^eiei^ $ but ndrr. |h«t;?iufguine:nfe^ "witfiV'-ji- 1:*-if ■- ."•■'":v: *: ".'•■'■■ '*:---i K^ KS::WSO% V;-|^;^Tie^;addr(ps^:,^i:bnet-;:^ the 'Goldfields Secretaryship=ie ;i'iiclrceipl?S heed?telLthemvh«Lhad;nothing; itf d 6; jtira'§? that. It' appeared meetmg^^a been called chiefly;witli a yiewitp enabling "cM members itb/talk about that.^ Htfthonglit" the want ofxiniiiy on -the p»rt of the mem* ?' bars ww| td bei^plored.-- had*ifie#P3 toMo his}be'i^bjxt/had tfone so§alone.i;l' He voted against- PTdyincjWism. : ,sf^epiii| he came to look^ at thf position of' affiairf^*SS (that af l er:vpgg every shilling tbAaintim^: the establis;hirient: tfeyiiwlmli be some:/;V-"; end/ of : the^iii^? jjjnpnths^l^aKijb't utv%iJ:ihne Proving isS sMUsm. jwas^tbolished. The" eoldfieldl^S /ih■-ieep^g^.fi^:p^a|i«n^^|J : |^^^^ :'and he defied anyone':tb.Vi|y^^twßp-^; exist under Avvv^ gard to;thejl|!un«ing^s^atipnl^ ;Heyed.'.;tliatY^ step, though unintentionally. The matter $:s &: should ' have'^beeff: 'initiated^bjrf itn¥^Ghwl^si f vernmentf > It v--was'^ ■ between^lthe^ittmiil GbyernnientsTandrahpnldchive^^te to rest with them.y He believed; the

deputation also deserved thanks, ana did good serrice. He did not think he had done „ anything particular himself, and could-not, then* fore, particularize as Mr Carpenter had done. Mr Davies then related.•> little < anecdoteas illustrating his *position wiSJiv " respect to his colleagues, it was oftyfo applicants for a situation. One'st&tecj. his qualifications—he cauld sow* and mow' and do numerous other things; the other on being ask«d what were hii claims* jaid, * " Oh, there is nothing for me to ds: tHf other man can do everything." i Mr Speight moved that the 'ttisetteg - accord a jrqte of thanks to the gentlemen for their statements, and'that ft I|U n.o fault to find with tWn t .Hedid'aofofr thisreason. He liked fairplay, andf^fplay should be accorded to these men in W, - ticular. It was bad policy to startwitlx to single out one particular member? and hold him up to scorn and opprobrium j but that menVber had shown to-nigUt that . he was quite able^to account for hit ac? tions. (Applause). That member wai Bro. Carpenter—our friend Carpenter. (Prolonged laughter.) With regard fcr th«" abolition question, erery member "had 'ii 1 right to hold his own opinion on such a matter, so long' as they carried~/otit their duties in other respects faithfully.;. The question had long been a modt ( faie. Jt had been shown clearly that Mr* Carpenter was 'prepared to go jn for abolition as far-as any sensible man y*i« members of the Thames ought to endear

tout' to pull together' a little^ moro. He (Mr Speight) happened to be"in Auckland during the session, and found that there was no such unanimous feeling with regard to. tho-Pumping Association grant as had heen represented. He found that one man—Mr Swanson—-and one who ■wielded as much power in the Council as any six members combined—was "" prepared...to oppose your application; and ;thaf'jirian—(Mr Bagnali interrupted to correct Mr Speight). He was in a position to know as he received the words from My Swanson in the coffee room of the Chambers, and he said that if it had not been for the determiuod exertions of Mr Carpenter, it would not have been carried; arid yet' a newspaper had taken advantage of his position,to impute to him base and mercenary motives, whioh was not fair. ' Mr Wm. Rowe came forward and said if'the motiqn just was not expected to. goon all foura^he agreed with it. He believed the members had done their duty to the best of their ability, but he thought they- would have done better to act in tioiton. Four members from the should exercise an almost irresistible power in the Council ■:> £4[-fa; Provincialism, its. time of uiefhl- - nest had passed away, but Mr Bagnall's action, was; out of time, and was calcu- < latld to do the people: of the Thame3 I ,j;reafc .damage. ';;^e:>-giramV for .the, pump - - ; wttaf;.''i ••: not,., sof ; ieasily? ' \ ob- j :}~JlthM'%f foe ;■';■':;:inetrißefa^%pr>.'.ydyt!'^- inaninfeus in its as he. would lead them to believe. C Si? George G-rey took a wrong step when ; he blamed the Government for passiug the money to the Provincial account, and also^.when .he attempted, to clear the Prslnn^ iafrd!.lb Pollen wasivrong when he told Sir George that he could take part of the money to spend on Ohinemuri. Not even a Prime Minister should thus dis--sose of money voted for a specific purpose, 'he ibrmer Superintendent had fallen into an! Crrbr—which' he was very liable to~ in connection with this £50,000 loan, namely, that of not consulting the Council. He (Mr Howe)" could' verify what Mr Speight had said about Mr Swanson. He met Mr Swanson in Auckland,. and that gentleman, in his own expressive language, had stated that the Pumping Association would .not getadanged scent. He asked Mr ■ Swanson'why.. "Why," said he, "Look at that foolßagnall. He ' comes up" here "with a half-grown resolution, and comes to"" the Council without asking his, own members or those of Auckland, ;and ■ without regard to ; the opinions of the Superintendent, and I have almost made up my mind to oppose anything being given." Mr Swanson might "contradict that, but he (Mr Bq>re).didD;'t think he would/ 'Several others had said that but for the action of Mrparpenter the Thames would not have jjoVttie money at all. He did not blame Mr,lJagnall:. ,He had acted according to ais'understanding. When he came to be two. or three mpre.years in the Couacil Jxe would know more about it, and that to carry- out any object he must have combination. ' . r,.,Mp.Bagnall _ said he did not vote without consulting hit colleagues. Mr Carleton was one. , - . „■-.• Mr Wickham: The intellectual majority of/the ,pouncil voted for it. '> • Mr Rowe said he had no doubt that Mr Garleton-sought for a tool to serve his own ends, -and found a good one in Mr Bagnall.'-'When the latter gentleman had - more knowledge his conduct .would be :^-Ms»xe to be'eommended". 'Mr Howe then ■*" seconded the resolution, which was carried linanimduilyv ■' " ■ rA, T.oto .. o| thanks to the Chairman brought the meeting to a close.