OHINEMURI.

Thames Star, Volume VII, Issue 1913, 19 February 1875, Page 2

OHINEMURI.

The Agreement Signed

Close of the Meeting.

(fIOM OVB SPECIAL BXPOBTEB.)

PUKETEAWAIEIHI,

Thursday morning.

. A meeting of Natives was held after the. meeting, yesterday, at which the Natives appeared to see the advantage of precautions of regulations. No trouble expected.. Meeting to commence again at eleven e/clock to-day, and will finish, it is thought. Sir Donald will likely go down on SaturThings are still very qiUet, pending the result of the negotiation between the Government and the Natives. I am given to understand that the extraordinary, and to most unexpected, claims advanced by Te Hira yesterday do, de facto, amount to nothing of any importance It is merely one of .their singular forms rignificant of nothing. ? Many persons imagined that his novel ideas, given expression to at public meeting, would cause further delay. . . A meeting of Natives interested in the land througn which it is proposed to cut a road from Te Papa to beyond the Aroha if to be held to-day at Matamata, for the purpose of considering whether or no the Government shall be allowed to proceed with the work. " The meeting will in all probability occupy a fortnight, the Natives having" laid in a good supply of waipiro, which will doubtless have the effect of lengthening the talk until it shall have been consumed.

Afternoon.

The meeting recommenced this afternoon, the talk being resumed by Te Hira.

Te Hira: Gold is what we. have been talking about. We have finished that. But there must not be 'too many fingers to handle the pieces that have been reserved. What you and McLean have said is sacred, to us. Ohinemuri has always been kept back, and you never came personally to me The reserves are not being properly treated. Listen McLean, you are mj upholder. If reserves are properly settled, you are really my strength. Sir Donald: I have one word to lay; regarding the reserves they remain with you and the people. The boundaries have been made by you and Mackay, and 'those I wish to remain yours to live on. But the party who soil to Europeans did not consult Te Hira, and that has caused difficulties, and these parts must be settled between the Europeans and Natives. But the goldfields are to be carried out as Mr Mackay said yesterday. We have Wen many yetjri trying to come

to a decision regarding Ohinemuri, and it is good to settle all matters to-day while the sun is up, and, I consider, that you should hold some reserves to live on, and Europeans ought not to trouble you, but let the' Government settle difficulties. What Mr Mackay said yesterday were instructions from the Government. . If we talk about the goldfields don't separate the different points as they wished yesterday, but let us talk of them wholly together. I suppose you have talked together about the gum and other things that are in the land, for we are talking in daylight to prevent difficulty.' Mataia: What I have to say is, you will have to judge whether it is wrong or right. But, listen. Mr Mackay and I have had differences about the reserves. The reason of our dispute is, that the division has been made, but they laid a road out m the reserves, and I am grieved about it. This is what I want you to discuss. Where the road goes plantations and houses are not noticed, and through this road I consider I suffer greatly. What I think is* the road ought to be taken straight onto the goldfield line, and then on through the goldfield. Mr Mackay told me that I would have an opportunity of talking to you, Sir Donald. I say that I am a sufferer by this road. I told Mr Mackay this before, at Shortland. There are others that were to talk about the matter besides myself, Mr Mackay: It is correct what you say that the goldfield and reserves have been divided. I could not agrie that the road should be on the boundary, for it is sometimes in swamps and sometimes in hills. I laid out two. roads, one from Hikutaia to the Paeroa, and from Te Puki to the Paerqa, and where the road goes through cultivations the road shall c fenced on each side. What you are afraid of is having to pay rates. You will not suffer from taxes, for lands that have not passed through the Court cannot be taxed; When they have passed through the Court they are liable to be taxed. If you held to what Sir Donald McLean says, to hold by these reserves, you will not suffer from those difficulties. The boundaries of the reserve commence at Pungao 3?irori, up the the Thames River to a point, and then back from this to the base of the hills at the point of commencement. The road that Mataia complains of does not gqlthrough his land, but goes through a swamp. , , Paora said what he stood up for was that he should be paid the miners' rights for his land, and not^be made to suffer for "Other'people. ; ; Mr Mackay $ What you are talking about you must talk to me, and not to Sir Donald. But I will talk; about what Te Hira said yesterday. The land should be handed over to the Government for the benefit of the whole tribe. You must not talk about individual matters; you must talk about the divisions of the reserve — between the reserve and the goldfields. Paora: We must go into these matters. I am not going to pay for the difficulties by others. „ Mataia; There is nothing more to be said about the gold. That is settled. What we have to look at'is tfie division to be made in the reserves. We don't know what may arise hereafter, for I have no crown grants for my land, etc.) etc. If any differences should, arise hereafter about the reserves Twill come to you. I am losing my lands through surveys and ' people getting goo<is;an3 money from me, and devouring up my surveys, and Crown grant fees, etc. lam a stranger to these matters. You are stealing 'my lands. About the goldfields we-can, .talk about that, although Mr Mackay lias talked about it before. - > Hoera : The reserves are in the hands of Te Hira, that we the younger ones in the tribe go and sell parts of it to the Europeans, and so cause difficulties. I would like all the younger men to have a meeting together. A number of Natives expressed a similar opinion to the above. Mr Mackay said he wonld if they liked explain again the.regulations: Take one matter at a time—you cannot mind two together. Te Moananui: We are going to answer Sir Donald about the reserves. I wish everything to be locked up within the \ reserves, and not at all allow any raihanas to be issued on account of these lands. I ; agree to leasing to the Government The gold was given for the benefit of the tribe—that is why the division was made, and I said yesterday I wanted to keep all the coal, gum and trees, that I could sell them as I could sell peach's. The gold alone to be yours. This is what Te Hira meant. Another thing must be settled— the townships. We must have meetings as to leasing, and meetings for everything else.

Sir DonaldMcLean: I understand all that you are talking about. Regarding raihanas it is not the Government's wish that they should be issued, but the Natives will come for them. As to the goldfields we must have one. law ..for all the minerals that are in it, so that there will be no difficulties hereafter. " The Government will do all this. Let everything be arranged by the Government se that if any dispute should arise you can go to the Government,-and have nothing to do with private individuals. Let everything be between yourselves and the Government. With regard to rights for township we can't do anything in that matter now, as we do not know where that will b? until the gold is discovered. Mr Mackay will settle that. Everything coming out of these, matters will be for your benefit.

Te Hira: I wish you and the Government to act for us, for I find private Europeans are not trustworthy. I wish everything to be under one law, and under one seal. It won't do to have a different law for tlie gold and a different law for the other minerals,.. Regarding -the reserves, you can have the flesli, bat

the bone is ours. For this reason we talk this day. It won't do for persons to survey and sell land. I won t allow it. For it will cause trouble to us hereafter. These reserves, mutt be mine—that is, ours. As long as the debts of each Native are settled, that is all that is wanted. When these debts are settled the miners' rights come to us as profit. If these matter are. carried througn properly here, it will be so elsewhere. Sir Donald McLean: I consider your great support is the law. What we iettle about to-day should be on paper, and have everything fixed up properly, and hold to it, for this will be exhibited to the whole world. You know me of old.. I always respected you and your wishes, and will do the same now. When everything is: settled regarding what Mr Mackay said yesterday we must write papers to fix these matter*. „.,,/

Thursday, 6.30 p.m. j Li The -i following is the conclusion of the great Native meeting, the Natives and Europeans having assembled again at Bunanga Whare, in front of which the deed of agreement was placed upon a table. In opening the proceedings!. Mr Mackay said if miners found other minerals beside gold they should pay for it, and the money would go to the Government at the same rate as mother casei. (Mr Mackay then reiterated what he had said yesterday regarding the terms of the agreement). Wherever the gold 11 there would be the township. If there was gold at Waitekauri there would be a township close to it. It was impossible to speak definitely. Hohepa said he would not agree to granting leases for agricultural purposes. Mr Mackay said Europeans wished to lease land within the goldnelds, but there was a regulation touching upon that matter. Regarding gum, if Europeans took out miners' rights they would be entitled to dig for it. - Hata Paka made a speech in which he said he had been left out in the cold during the negociations. Sir Donald McLean said he did not ignore the smaller chiefs. Although he , had talked with Te Hira and others conI sidering they represented the tribe, he : did not slight other members of the tribe. I Whikiriwhi: I coincide with Hata i Faka that both small and great should be consulted, for we are thole who might cause trouble hereafter. Hopirobana Tupo: I will never have | any more to do with lands that have been handed over to you—they are in your hands, you manage them for us/ and hand to us the proceeds. , v< . Mr Mackay: Sir Donald wishes me td ask you a question. The question is this. Do you understand what has been said tame to-day. If you do all understand, \«y yes ; if you do not, ask that it may be explained. Whikiriwhi said: That is what we have been waiting for, that you should ask us. The Government, are those only who can make the terms for thegoldfield, but what I want is that yeu should carry out these things properly. I agree with what you said about the kauri., but there are other trees that we, consider valuable, such as thetotara. lam agreeable that you should bmy jbhem. 1 The question to bo dealt fairly with is dividing the money' acquired from i&d goldfield. Te Hira: I have always been at the head of the people, but they have not recognised me properly j if, they had, it would never have come to this. That is why thu meeting is here to-day. We are all one now. Let us settle everything satisfactorily. Let it be sealed. Sir Donald McLean: If you are all of one mind, we will have the agreement signed, when we have returned from dinner. While we are at dinner we will draw out the agreement,.and when ,we return it will be read out to you. ; ; Mr Mackay: This agreement refers to all those matters referring to the goldfield. This is what the Government think, that you should appoint a man out of each tribe to look into what amount each tribe has received; also, for what they are* to receive for gold gold, gum, coal, etcetra, that we have been talking about. Mr Wilkinson, as the Licensed Native Interpreter, will read you the agreement. Mr Wilkinson then read the agrees ment, during the reading of which Mr*'Mackay explained the various points in it requiring comment. Tukukino: I get up to say that the trees are for me, tjfe gum and coal are for me; but IHe that you have included them Li tMeMgreement; but no, I keep those. I will give them into your hand myself. The firewood, we'll arrange for that between us—everything of that sort we will arrange separately. You are taking them all for yourself, but. I say " no;'' my hands will give you those. It won't do for you to take these. Let it be only the gold. , Mr Mackay: When I was at the Komata those were the words you used. If these things are left in your hands' they will cause you (rouble. There will be trees cut and burnt, and you will come to me and say, "my trees are burnt,"" and the Europeans will say " nothing was said about it in the agreement, and it does not matter in the least to me." For this reason they are included in the agreement. We don't want to rob you ol anything. ; ; Tuliukino: At the meeting in Taipari's house nothing was mentioned but the gold ; therefore I hold to the gum, coal, and oil (meaning petroleum). • Mr Mackay: Your own hand will hand it over to us by signing the agreement. Let you live on the reserves, and the Europeans on the goldfields, and the Government will carry through all matters regarding the goldfield, for you will not be able to contend with the Europeans : but we can. Jf you don't hand over those lands now there will be a great deal qi

trouble arise, and it is better to do thif. Therefore we say, include everything, for nothing for your benefit wifl be overlooked. Tukukino: The coal, gum, toes and oil, are tbe only matters which Ar wish to arrange about. Mr Mackay : If Igo by wfclfyou say, who will look after these things ? Tukukino: Let me bare the manage* ment myself. I will not find fault with you. As to the Irauri we will fell it to the highest bidder. Mr Mackay: The miners' rights are yours. Those are what we hare handed to you. - ' - "-U. Tukukino: What I fiLed famlt in iatfaSt you have within all your own ideas in the agreement, but not mine, . v Mr Mackay: It is 20 yean ago fine* Coromandel was handed over, and yet the timber is notyet exhausted. r : „ Hohepa: That is an old arrangement, and nothing to do with thin. I cannot agree to the £5 for timber license. If it is once written down in;your agreement nothing can be altered, t wish to arrange the price for the timber to any who wiU give me my price. Mr JVlackay: I know blocks that you sold at Cape Colville, 2 or 3 hundred acres for £30. The Government can't make the price for the timber more than has been fixed. ■ . Te Hira here addrr ssed himself to the Natives with regard to the subject of the agreement under discussion. Te Moananui: Listen., What lias been said in the agreement is not understood by seme people. All these points being discussed some are afraid might in future be a trouble Xo them. Let-u* discuss them. For when it is once! written down it will remain so. The commencement of our talk was for one thing, bat other things have cropped up ; therefore, let «• talk about them. We have nothing to saynowabsmt the reserves, but whftia in theJjUfislds. Once it is settled all those mlmgtu. All the miners' riihts are given for the Benefit of the whole/of the people. Let everything .rising out of the goldfield be gfven fir the benefit of the people. ... .. „ ... Te Hira: Let us all be ene and everything be put straight. It is a matter of great importance. It is. the land and its treasures that have made Ohinemuri of consequence.- .The Maoris i ibemseltei will arrange for the coal; : It will not oo to reserve the coal for the benefit of one T nii buL musfc *?. 4F«n for the benefit of all. There^ will T* no trouble if this is arrangedr;rThe raihanas?that were issued on Cape Colville are not to he charged here. , ' ; . -: Mr Mackay: I want to ask you a question? wjbich you or Te Moananui will answer. Are the profits coming out of m"? -*° to discn*pg«yoursebii, Te Moananui and Te Hira here commenced to discuss the charge laii aaainst *:d£2s "ceiTed «*rf-!sr Mr Mackay said the Government had included in the debt, and considered only as an advance. r ,^.. *7* Pineha said he had not madei to accu. Sir IESfI *&»*»*&(& Hifi. Sir Donald: When I was g oinjr to *Tm TJ^^ff ■•Wmrtf tettfedTand that all that was to do was to *et the iocament / Mrime *&*&&&£+ it, but now you are coming forward t*v oliject. Thoseinatterifin iitinSSJ* are not for the benefit of th^Q^SrS ment, but for. yours. ItajletttTSiS everything now. What you hare got to do now is to sign the document anfthen dp what else yo* ike.. AU priiav* to do to-day is to sign the agreen^it. Hohepa : X It is the trees that I Want to telk about. I don't want the laws that were made for the trees in Hauraki u«bM ttght hpre- AU the *ww of that goldfield are gone, and I received • prevent Europeans and Maories from working it. Whylamstrongasregards opposing the digging for gum'ii beiauie my motW died on the hills. As regards Honana. Potiki here addressed the meeting, bufchis utterances were W not much importance. He said at Cabbage J anli? lsf-t ere fchero w«r« »w mills and all^e timber was sold to Buropeans. ■;the ground and by digging format you .raise the roots of the trees? So I say let us arrange for both in one day. Te Moananui: There is nothing mentioned in the agreement about tales and surveys of Ifn4v These must be included. Sir Donald: What we have to talk ia what has been handed over to the government, not native reserves; we, leave those under the 014 native title. Te Moananui. If we say nothing of the prevention of land sales, some one will come and put a claim over it. If that was mentioned in the Agreement this could not be dor?. -: Sir Donajd: We are talking now of the goldfield; not; the reserves, that can be discussed afterwards. Te Moananui: That settles it then. Mr Mackay: We wish the main road from Shortland and Puki to be proceeded with. Sir Donald McLean told To Hira he had befter sign first. Pineha: Answer what I have to say first, before you get Te Hira to sign. x Hara te.Patene said-sjie was one to sign, and had hot had anything to say in the proceedings. Hopihana then came forward and placed ' his signature upon the deed. , . Te Moananui asked that the agreement might be read out again. ,He wanted to , hear more" about it, and to see it more 1 clearly; *. Mr Wilkinson, thereupon read 1 *he agreement a second time. ' !^ipa v Baharuhi wislied everything I included iv ihe lagreenient for the gold-

to you

Hata Paka ■wislicd the kauri trees to be handed over to the natires. The kauri trees were easily looked after. He wanted to know how long it would be before his* debt wa» wiped off. Mackay: It depends upon how ! much gold there is in your lands. I 1 Hata Paka said Mr Mackay ought to know how many were coming, and how much gold would be got when the field was once opened. If Mr Mackay ceuld not tell him how many years it would take to pay off, the Government might make it as long as they liked. . Mr/ Mackay explained that it would all depend upon the number of Europeans and the number of miners' rights taken up. \ Mcr«£ufu said, if there was no gold found, and the Europeans went away, she would consider the raihanas paid, as they spoilt the country. Those hews already Jiaad spoiled the country. Hata Paka said ho would like a Maori to b re with" the European that received the miner! 1 rights. Kep& said he would like an arrange;lfcent by which the Gorernmrnfc would . take the mnxecs* tights for three quarters and the na%fß : |or one .quarter, per itpninn)-.^ ■"*'■; V " ■ Mr Maekfty; th» agreement was only a preliminary matter, and they would .xjecoite their money as ioon as the field was opened. ' Tc Moananui'i son said that nothing wtrf said in the agreement about what the Maories had said within the last two days. " ' ' Sir Donald: All the proceeds from the gold fields must go to the Natives. The Government receive no benefit. Hirawa Te Monnanui: Fire pounds is too little for an area of 20 acres—it is a f~ large pitce of ground. We hive seen the evils which attended regulations at the Tkjtmes. . : Hoera Te Mimitia said he wanted all the young people to meet together and •oatult. *11 the Europeans must go back to whence they came, as they had told a lot "of lies about there leing no gold in Obinemuri. They should come all in a mass. The Govern meat should bring as many h*re"as the d«bt wai (reckoning :££ per man) namely, 26,000. If tbe Government Agent did not look after things and do what was proper he would let the Government know and vhe (the Agent) {mist be discharged- As to the land coming Back to them after the debt was paid off, it was all nonsense: , Mr Mackay iteid he could not bring Europeans here as slaves,.in any number that was wanted. . Hoera said he would not. sign. 300 men would not pay his debt unless they paid £100 a piece. Tupeka said he wanted blocks *At Waihi reserved. Mr Mackay said the Government had agreed to reserve certain blocks at Waihi. , , , Eiwai said it was getting dark, and suggested that other matters should beset ajide for the discussion of those peculiarly affecting himself. Mr Mfccicay aiked them* to come and iign, as the Ministers wished to despatch the business on account of a great calamity which had befallen, in the death of Mr Williamson. Karaitiana came forward and signed at once; Wikaka T# Hikahita, Mere Ken, Te Moawraui,. Te Hire, EmaTe Aaru, Harata Patene, Honana Eohatara and other heads oA the different bapus then offered their signatures. . The meeting then dispersed.