GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Temuka Leader, Issue 2245, 25 August 1891, Page 4

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Wellington, August 21 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

[The following is the conclusion of the report of Thursday night's debate.] GAMBLING AND LOTTERIES BILL. In Clause 4, defining what lotteries should be lawful, the words " games of chance,"' which were proposed to be unlawful in general, were struck out. Mr Ballance said the Bill had been greatly mutilated by the excision of Clause 3 and the alteration in Clause 4, and he therefore suggested that progress be reported in order that the Crown law officers might be consulted. As the Bill now stood nobody could tell what its real meaning was. Mr Hutchison thought the Bill might be passed through' committee .and the Crown law 'officers could be consulted before, the final staged were taken. ' Mr Meredith was altogether opposed to the Bill, as he believed it would have the effect o£ flooding the country with the gambling fraternity. Mr Lawry was of opinion the measure was a very useful one. Thousands of pounds were sent to Australia every year to be invested in sweeps, and he did not gee why sweeps should not be legalised here and, that money kept in the colony. Mr Meredith" moved that the first subsection, which proposed to legalise consultations held under license from the Colonial Secretary be struck out. Lost by 14 to 21. Subsection 4, legalising games for moderate stakes the conductor of which received no. monetary l ■or other consideration; was struck out. Other amendments made were of a trivial character and the Bill was reported. BOOK PUrWaSERS PROTECTION BILL. The, Bill was reported, read a third time and passed. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. On reaching! the final ; stage 'of the Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill, Mr Bollestdn; Mr Ballance, Mr J.' Mills, and Mr- • Carncross spoke briefly, after which ;the third reading was agreed to and the Bill! passed; The House rose at 2.45 a.m., and met at 2.30 p.m. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Replying to questions; it was stated that the Government had no power to purchase large estates, but they hoped to obtain power under the Land for Settlement Bill; that it was iibt the intention of the Government to.place a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose of paying the Chairmen of various Committees; of the House. The Premier moved a resolution, removing Mr B. C. Hamerton from his office&s Public Trustee. He said that he regretted it had fallen to him to take steps for the removal of an officer who had for years held ( office without a single charge being brought against him; After he had received the report of the Public Trust Commission he felt that it was not desirable that Mr Hamerton should continue as Public Trustee. Mr Hamerton had committed;errors which in a Public Trustee should not be overlooked, but he was convinced that the mistakes were not made with any evil and there were no acts of corruption shown. With respect to'the letter which had been read in the House that afternoon from Mr B[amerton, to the effect' that he had not been in a position to receive an impartial hearing at the hands of the Commission, the Premier pointed out that Mr Hamerton was Afforded every opportunity xo state his case before the Commission. He had no objection to Mr Hamerton being heard at the bar of the House if the Housti wished it, and he hoped that honorable members would come to a conclusion without introducing any party feeling into the question. Captain Bussell very much doubted whether the House had power to remove Mr Hamerton from his office under present conditions. Li order to test the question he moved the following amendment—" That as no distinct charges had been formulated against Mr Hamerton, and as no evidence on bath had been taken before the House, this House is of opinion that Mr Hamerton's removal from office without having had an opportunity of being heard at the bar of the House would be irregular and unconstitutional."' He quoted from authorities at some length to prove that an officer who held office during good behaviour could be removed only by a distinct Vote of both Houses and on evidence taken before the House on oath, not at second hand/and he contended that the evidence taken before the Boyal Commission was second hand. Like a Judge, the office of'Public Trustee was a Ministerial one, and was held daring good behaviour. Mr Ileesi held that there was a great difference between the position of a Judge and that of a patent officer. A Judge eould only be removed on account of misbehaviour either in hi« office or out of it. The patent of the Trust Department was not guarded by any such proviso, nor was their any reason why it should be.

The Premier Baid he could, not .accept the amendment, and asked the Hoiise to carefully weigh the arguments adduced by Mr Rees with reference to the respective positions of a Judge and a Public Trustee in deciding this case ■without asking Mr Hamerton to appear at the Bar of the House. He contended that Ministers were following the precedent of the House of Commons. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 p.m. adjournment. The House resumed at 7.30 p.*n. On thembtion of Mr Duthie,the debate on the Hamerton question was adjourned till Tuesday.

PAYMENT OF MBMBEBS. The Premier' moved the second reading' of the Payment of Members Bill. He had long been an advocate of payment of members, and he held it was a just and proper principle. The Government were not making in any respect a new parture by this Bill, as for many years the payment of members has prevailed in ihe other Australian colonies. As to the amount proposed to be paid, namely £240 a year for the House and £l5O for the Legislative Council, he did not think the amount mentioned was too much for membersof the Legislative Council, as he •was of opinion that that body should comprise a fair number of members representing the labouring interest, and £240 was ouly fair remuneration for the I members of the Lower House, who had to

Jive in Wellington for a whole session. Jf members were not fairly paid there

would only be one class of men who could afford to enter Parliament, and that would, be against the interests of democracy. He pointed out that the Bill would also prevent the scandal that arose out of two sessions and separate payments for each session, as provision was made for the £240 being paid yearly by monthly instalments.

Mr Bryce supposed he should be justified in referring to this Bill as one of the Government policy measures. The Premier had referred to Victoria, but the session there lasted eight or nine months, while the payment to members was only £3OO per annum. As to the argument that-members were put to much expense, lie pointed out that every member could attend to his own business directly the session was over, and surely he did not requite £240 a year to cover the expenses he was put to. No one in the colony denied the right of" modet&te payment, although it was contended in many quarters that the amount should not be se large as to place them under the head of "professional politicians." He protested against the lavish expenditure entailed by this Bill in; proposing to increase the payment to members of the Legislative Council. If the colony was going to pay its enormous amount of interest were not justified in flinging away money in this manner. No doubt ah increase in Ministers' salaries would follow this Bill as a matter of course, but he failed to see how such a proposal could be in keeping with the policy of retrenchment. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr Moore seconded the amendment. Mr Tanner said that he had been returned to Parliament as one possessing some advanced ideas, but the Bill before the House was altogether too advanced for him, and he thought the proposal to increase the payment of members came vvith a particularly bad grace in face_bf the heavy customs duties oh the necessaries of: life; On this occasion he should vote against Government. ; ; Mr Saunders said that the Government put not only a whip but a cord' into the hands of their opponents by bringing in such a Bill as this. He denied that any improvement would take place 'in the class of members if this Bill were given effect to. He would not vote for the second reading or any other stage of the Bill

Sir George Grey contended that without payment of members there would be no free institutions, aiid a great amount of talent would be lost to the country. He thought the amount should be left for the Committee to fix.

Mr Swan said his opinion was that the greatest talkers in the House were the smallest workers, and he should propose in Committee that members be paid at per folio of Hansard. His proposal was that each member should be allowed to fill a certain number of pages of Hansard during the session and a deduction of, say, £5 or £lo per page, should be made from the honarium for every page over the limit. : Several other members also spoke, among the number being Mr W. P. Beeves, who said the Ministers had no desire to raise their own salaries, but were content to wait till circumstances justified their being raised to their former amount. The amendment was lost by 24 to 33. The following is the division list For the amendment—24 : Buchanan; Bryce, Duthie ; Fergus," Hall, Harkness, Macarthur, T. McGuire, .Meredith,: J, Mills, Moore, Newman, Rhodes, Bichardson, Bolleston, Saunders, Swan, Tanner, B. Thompson, T. Thompson, J. 'W. Thompson, Valentine. Wright. Against the Amendment—33: Ballance Buick, Cadman, Carncross, . Carroll, Dawson, Duncan, Earrishaw; Fish, Fisher, Grey, Guinness, Hall-Jones, Hamlyn, Hogg, Houston, W. Hutchison, Joyce Kapa, J. Kelly, W. Kelly, Macintosh, C. H; Mills, Parata, Perceval, Pinkerton, Bees, E. H. J. Beeves, W. P. Beeves, Seddon, Shera, W. C. Smith, Taylor. Pairs—For: Lawryj Mitchelson, M. J.S. Mackenzie, Wilson, G. Hutchison, and Bussell. Against—F. M. Smith, Ward, J. McKehzie, O'Connor, McDonald, Fraser, The second reading was carried by 33 to 22.

On the question being put that the Bill be committed on Tuesday, Mr Fergus moved the Bill be committed that day three months. Lost on the voices. The House rose at 1.10 a.m.