PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

Temuka Leader, Issue 1482, 20 March 1886, Page 2

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

A visitation meeting of the Presbytery of South Cnnterbury was held in th* Presbyterian Church, Temuka, last Wednesday evening. The members of the Presbytery present were the Revs. Gillies, Barclay and McKee and Mr Stewart. There was a very large attendance of the members cf the church. The Rev. Mr McKee, Moderator, presided, and after prayers had been offered up, called on the Clerk of the Presbytery, the Rev. Mr Gillies, to explain the object of the meeting. The Rev. Mr Gillies then read an extract from the minutes of a meeting of the Presbytery held previously in Timaru, and also a letter from the Rev. Mr Mackintosh, in which he explained how through illness be had not been able to attend to his duties, and offering to resign if the congregation thought that the interests of religion had suffered. He explained that his medical adviser had informed him that he could attend one service on each Sabbath Day. He was prepared to do this, and provide at his own expense a minister to attend the second service, If the congregation thought this arrangement would result in the interests of religion suffering, ho was prepased to resign, otherwise he had no desire to do so. The Rev. Mr Gilies said that on receipt, of this htforthe Presbytery resolved to hold the present meeting so as to ascertain the mind of the congregation on the subject. The question they had to consider was whether the interests of religion had suffered through the illness and consequent absence from the church of the Rev. Mr Mackintosh, and whether on that ground it was advisable that there should be a severance of the pastorol tie. The doctor had informed Mr Mackintosh that he had not yet sufficiently recovered to undertake more than one service on the Sabbath Day. Mr Mackintosh, however, was prepared to provide at his own expense for both morning end evening services being attended to, and the question, for the congregation now was whether they were agreeable to that arrangement. The Rev. Mr McKee hoped that all who had the interests of religion at heart would express their minds freely on the subject. The object of the meeting wae to give them all on opportunity of stating their mind upon it. He hoped the session would lead the way. Mr Stewart said he felt the interests of religion had not suffered through the illness of Mr Mackintosh, as they had been well supplied all along, it would be very cruel to remove him because be happened to have such an affliction. They had a good man- a man of God—a man of whom they need not b* ashamed, and he sincerely trusted God would so restore his health that he would bo able to perform the full services.

Mr North said ho spoke the feelings of Waitolii whan ho said that the interests of religion had not suffered. It would be hard to separate them from Mr Mackintosh now. Ho was a good Christian man, and that was what they wanted. He beleived this to be the opinion of the people of Wnitohi. Mr Guild wished to know whether a show of hands was to b« taken on the subject. The question was not whether the interests ot religion had suffered through Mr Mackintosh's illness. That was not the question at all, but the subject of infant baptism was the question. The congregation would, he was sure, fall in with any arrangements Mr Mackintosh made, but if he adhered to his views on this question of baptism it would have the effect of driving baptism out of the church. He had no wish to see Mr Mackintosh leave them, but there was great dissatisfaction on the question of baptism, and he felt if a show of hands were taken the dissatisfied would vote against him. He objected to a show of hands.

Theßsr. Mr Gillies said the question of infant baptism was a different matter altogether. The Presbytery knew nothing of this subject, and their coming had not the slightest reference to it, They had come co lay Mr Mackintosh’s letter before the congregation, and to ascertain from them whether the interests of religion was suffering through Mr Mackintosh’s incapacity to fulfil his duties. That was the object ef the meeting, and not to discuss the question of baptism. Mr Rout said they had undoubtedly suffered through Mr Mackintosh’s illness, but to a very small extent, and they would put up with that only for this question of infant baptism. There was not one member who areuld complain of Mr Mackintosh’s absence through illhealth ; it was the other subject which had caused discontent, and he did not see bow one could be separated from the other.

The Moderator said the question was whether the interests of religion was suffering through Mr Mackintosh’s illhealth. They had nothing at present to do with the other question, Thera was nothing before the meetingMr Guild moved—“ That the Presbytery be requested to deal with the question of infant baptism.” The Rev, Mr Gillies said they mast dispose of the question of ill-health first,

Mr Guild said that was putting the cart before the horse. The fact wasj those who were dissatisfied would not vote on the question of ill-bealth if they were not given an opportunity of voting on the question of infant baptism.

Mr Rout said the question of infant baptism was the one wh'ch Mr Mackintosh would have to stand or fall by. The Rev. Mr Gillias said the question of ill-health must be settled first. They would have to get a resolution on that subject put on the books of the Presbytery first, as it was the business brought before them. He would suggest that some one would move the following resolution—“ That this congregation sympathise with Mr Mackintosh in his wesKened state of health, and express its gratitude to God for the measure of restoration granted, and its willingness to fall in with the arrangements proposed ; that Mr Mackintosh should ns far as practicable take one service, and de such visitations sa Le may be able for, he making suitable prevision for the services he cannot undertake.” Mr Stewart moved the resolution, and it was seconded by Mr John Anderson, who said the people of Waitohi were thoroughly satisfied. Mr Guild moved—“ That no vole be taksn on the subject.” The fact was the Presbytery were hedging themselves behind officialism too much. The Rev. Mr Gillies said it was necessary to put a resolution on the minute book of the Presbytery referring to the subject which brought them thers. If , the congregation came to no resolution the Presbytery could come to a resolution of its own. The Moderator would really advise the congregation to come to some resolution.

After some further argument Mr Gillies suggested the following addition to the above resolution That at the same time the congragation desire to bring before the Presbytery a cause of difficulty which has arisen between the session and a part of the congregation in connection with baptism, and request the Presbytery to take this into consideration.” After the mover and seconder had agreed to this addition, it was put to the meeting, when 39 voted for it and 3 against it. Many refrained from voting. The question of baptism was then taken. Mr Gillies read extracts from the Minute Book of the session. Mr Rout said the real grievance was that Mr Mackintosh said, at a meeting of the Managing Committee, that when he was a student he made a resolution that if ever he got charge of a church ho would, never baptise a child unless the father or tho.mother..was a' communicant. Mr Gillies said it was a strange thing that what- had been said at a Committee meeting hud been talked about outside. Everything done ata Managing Committee meeting should be private. Besides, the Managing Committee had nothing to do with such matters. Their business was to look after the finances. He hoped the fact that this matter was talked about outside the Committee would not be made a precedent. Mr Rout said Mr Mackintosh said the same thing at a congregational meeting. Mr Gillies said if so it became public property, .and he had every reason to behove Mr Mackintosh would not retract one word of what he hsd said. The fact was he was bound to stand by the laws of the Church, as lie (Mr Gillies) had done for 21 years. Everyone who knew his Shorter catcheciam ought to know that only children of members of a visible Church were to be baptised, and any Presbyterian Minister was bound to stand by the laws of the Church. In snch cases, the parents ought to go quietly to their Minister, and speak to him on the subject, and if they did this the result would be satisfactory. Parents had frequently gone to him, and not one for 21 years bad complained of him for re* fusing to baptise. Th» fact was that after he had explained, they refusad themselves to hays their children baptised. He would ad vise them to go to their Minister and speak to him in a straightforward manner, and they would find this difficulty righted. Mr Bissett: Is admission to the Lord’s table the first door to the Church 1 Mr Gillies said the first privilege waste sit »t the Lord’s table. There could be no higher privilege. Mr Gray said the chief question was baptism, and he thought Mr Mackintosh ought to have been present to give' his views on it. He was in favor of chi’dren being christened in the Church, and if there was only that the difficulty conld be easily got over. The real difficulty was that Mr Mackintosh had said that he would stand or fall by his determination not to baptise children, one of whose parents was not a communicant. He (Mr Gray) replied that if the congregation had known that- Mr Mackintosh would never have received the call, and Mr Mackintosh answered that if at the end of the year it was found the interests of religion were suffering through it he would place his resignation in the hands of the Presbytery. It was given out from the pulpit not long ago that Mr Mackintosh would probably resign, but it now appeared he had not done so. Notwithstanding the lecture the| Clerk of the Presbytery had thought fit to give them, the matter had done a good deal of injury to the Church, and if persisted in he would not like to say what the result would be, but one thing was certain: the subsefiotions would fall off. The Rev, Mr Gillies reJcTan extract j from the annual report, and said the fall-1 ing off in the receipts for, the last year amounted only to £l9. /if there was a falling off financially there would be a gain spiritually. The Moderator said If there was only a falling off of £l9 -it was-very small. Many a congregation experienced a falling off of three times that amount in these hard times. After some farther remarks to the effect above related, the Rev. Mr Gillies said the Presbytery would now consider the congregation would have nothing, to do with the subsequent discussion. After' some argument as to whether the Presbytery should deliberate in private, $ resolution was carried, to hold the meeting in the presence of the congregation. Th« Rev. Mr Gillies then moved— “That regarding the matter of difficulty brought the Presbytery, they would advise all parties to study the interests of peace and spiritual prosperity of the church, and in regard to individuals A

desiring baptism for their children, r o ' commend such individuals not to act on hearsay statements as to the opinion of the minister, but to go to him privately, and frankly talk the matter over with him. The Presbytery are fully assured if such a course is adopted all trouble will speedily be removed, and all differences adiusted In a Christian spirit and manner.” Mr Stewart seconded the motion.

The Rev. Mr Gillies said they ought to have exhibited better feelings than to go making grievances out of. nothing, and magnifying evils which had no existence. He knew of nothing more insisted on by the church than this very question of which they complained. The question was not what was the practice of this minister or that, but what was the mind of the great masters on the subject, These troubles arose out of mere reports, whereas if they had gone to the minister instead of talking outside of it, the matter would hare besn satisfactorily settled. _ The Moderator also deprecated outside talk. Nearly all trouble was caused through this, and he would assure them that nothing would give more pleasure to their minister than that they sheuld go to him in all cases of this kind. The Rev. Mr Barclay congratulated the congregation on the absence of hostility to their minister, as evinced by the proceedings of that meeting. He would not vote on the question. The Moderator and the Rev. Mr Gillies also expressed their admiration of the Christian restraint shown by the congregation, and, after some further remarks, the motion was carried. The meeting then terminated by the Moderator pronouncing the Benediction.