THE DISCUSSION.

Taranaki Daily News, 20 September 1919, Page 5

THE DISCUSSION.

MKMBKRS WANT TIME TO CONHIDER SCHEME. Sir Junes Allen read to the House tin: fecheme ft* soldiers' gratuities, and moved that fhs paper be laid on thetable of the and be printed. Sift Joeeph Ward said the matter Vm a T«ry important one, hut in the form it which it was brought down no one had the opportunity of going carefully into the proposals. He thought (■embers should have the opportunity of consulting 'with their fellow members about" them. They might agree with them and they might not, but he was not prepared blindly to accept them He suggested the debate should be adjourned till Tuesday, so that members night have time to carefully consider them. He might even have to move a motion on the matter. Mr. Massey: The hon. gentleman can obstruct if he likes. Sir Joseph Ward said he had not thought of obstruction. Mr. Massey said the hon. gentleman Should wait till he knew what the Government proposed to do. Sir Joseph Ward said he had the undoubted right to ask for time for consideration of the proposals, and he was not seeking to create obstruction. He merely made a friendly suggestion. Mr. Massey said the position was that the Government had the power and authority under the existing legislation to pay the gratuities out without delay, but they had no intention of doing so. They had taken members into their confidence, but he noticed during the last few days a tendency to obstruct business. (Members: No, no!) What he had in mind was that as soon as the Minister for Defence had finished his statement, was to ask the House to adjourn till 7.30, so that in the interval members might have an opportunity of calmly considering the proposals. Sir Joseph Ward said the proposals were too big and important to be rushed through. He again asked that the discussion be adjourned till Tuesday. Mr. Wilford said that every member had k responsibility in this matter, and each was entitled te all information, so that he be in a position to thoroughly understand and explain the scheme when hgtWfit before his constituents. Mr. Holland claimed there was a wider .principle at stake than that members should understand the proposals. The people should have an opportunity of piderf Undiut than. The gross total ;}ra-.

posed to he spent fey- the Miniate* fell short by one-half of what the returned soldiers asked for. Sir Jas. Allen: That is quite wrong, the amount is larger than that asked for by the returned soldiers. Mr. Holland, continuing, declared that the House was evidently expected to swallow anything put before them, but they were not going to do it. They wanted time to consider the proposals, and a week was neither here nor there. If the Government was pot prepared to adjourn the discussion till Tuesday, it would be a fair thing to divide the House, i If the proposals were carried through in' their present form he ventured to say the Government would have every returned Soldier against them. The Hon. G. W. Russell pointed out that, by the Aet passed by the National Government, the present Government had power, to pay the gratuities without further authority, but he asked, Did the Government propose to pass the scheme en Woe without giving members an opportunity to consider its details and suggest amendments? if so, he was prepared to join with any other members to prevent them doing so. The Hon. Hanan said he hoped this matter would jiot be made a political football by the Heram At the same time, he advised the Government not to addpt an attitude which would look as if they were trying to rush this thing throttgh. Mr. McCoomos stressed the point that Hie people had the right to understand the proposals as well as members. Therefore delay was advisable. Sir John Findlay, by way of compromise,, suggested the House should accept the Premier's proposal, and adjourn till 7.30, and then if members still wanted time to consider the matter perhaps a further adjournment might be granted. Mr. Massey said he would agree to that. If members were not prepared to go on at 7.30 he would consider what was the next best thing to do. STATEMENT BY DEFENCE MINISTER. Sir Jas. Allen said so far as the law Was concerned, there was no need to bring the scheme before the Houße at all, but, as members were in session, he thought it right to place the matter before them. The position was clearly set out in the Expeditionary Forces Amendment Act, and he wished to remove what he feared was a common misapprehension that this was a payment for services rendered. It was a free gift from the people of New Zealand to the men who went away with the Expeditionary Forces. In this connection, he wished to make an appeal to the people of New Zealand. This money had to come out of the ten million loan now being raised, and his request was that all the people should join in making this gift by subscribing to the loan. It had beeh said that returned soldiers would not approve of this scheme, but he knew that the amount granted was larger than that suggested by the Returned Soldiers' Association. At the same time, he wanted to make it clear that in Voting so large a sunt there was no idea on the Sart of the Government that they could uy the returned soldiers' vote. He had hot made this matter a party question, as proof of which he had tried to get the amount fixed before the National Government broke up. He then proceeded to explain the details of the scheme, as set out in the paper to be laid on the table. The rate of gratuity was to be on a flat rate of la Od from the date of embarkation to the signing of peace. He was not personally enamored of the fiat rate, because he thought officers should receive more than the privates, but he had been led to accept it, not by pressure from his colleagues, but by the attitude of the officers themselves. The Main Body man would thus receive a gratuity for four years and 225 days, Wherever discharged. There were additional amounts provided for those killed and those disabled while on active service. Thousands of forms of application would be issued in a week's time, but he asked all concerned to exercise as much patience as possible in the' ease of there being any delay, as the task was a huge one. It was proposed if applicant had a banking account to pay the amount into it. If not to the P.O. Savings Bank, an account to be opened for him, upon which he could operate at once, but he trusted that in all cases it would be used with discretion. He appealed to the men if they had no immediate use for the money to let it remain in the bank, or put it into war certificates. He quoted figures comparing the gratuities paid in Canada, with ft view to showing that, With gratuities, privileges, and assistance in cases of hardship, the New Zealand soldier was infinitely better off than the Canadian Regarding the conditions, he had given them his most careful personal consider.!. tion, because he felt them worthy of whatever time, patience, and ability he could bestow on them. He trusted 'he returned soldiers would accept the gratuity as a willing and grateful gift from the people of New Zealand, and ho asked members to lift such an important matter from above party strike. Replying to Mr. Ngata, the Minister said he would have the paper translated into Maori and put up in all the post offices. The motion was then put that the paper be laid on the table and be printed, on which the Premier moved that the debate be adjourned till 7.30. Sir Joseph Ward again pressed the Premier to say what the position was to be if members were not prepared to accept the proposals. Mr. Massey said he would consider the next best thing to do. On this a lengthy and desultory discussion took place, in which members wanted to know what power they had to amend the proposals if necessary, on which they were told they could reduce the amount but not increase it. { Sir Joseph Ward asked the Premier if the Government wanted the opinion of the House on the proposals, and if so in what form did they propose to take it. j Sir Jas. Allen said members could give their opinion by debate or amendment. Laying on the table of the paper was the usual way, and only way, in which these proposals could be put before the House. It had been brought down in the hope that it might be accepted unanimously. After some further discussion, the Premier's motion was agreed to, and the House rose at 4.50. PREMIER AGREES TO ADJOURNMENT. , On resuming, Sir Joseph Ward said that since the, adjournment he had consulted with the members of his party on the subject of soldiers* gratuities, and they had come to the conclusion that they would have to ask the Premier to carry out his promise, as they understood it, that he would adjourn the debate till Tuesday, and he now made that request. Mr. Massey said he recognised the seriousness of the proposals, and he 1 thought members of the Opposition would

fecognide thftt the boys des«rv«d what was proposed. The Government was prepared to go on with them. The Opposition evidently was not. He felt sute he had the majority of the House beliirtd him, but he had no intention of using that majority, because he recognised that if they went on with the discussion it would only result in an unseemly i wrangle, which would be no credit to | Parliament or to New Zealand. He was, j therefore, prepared to accede to the request to adjourn the debate, but it could not come on on Tuesday, f Sir Joseph Ward said he hoped no one would think that he desired the adjournment of the debate merely out of caprice. It was only to secure the necessary time to look into the proposals. Mr. Poland regretted the proposal to | adjourn. He was prepared to speak his mind on the subject of gratuities, and, as usual, it would not be sympathetic criticism, for_he did not consider 10s 6d per week anything like what the soldiers! should receive. | | On Sir Joseph Ward's motion, thaj debate was then further adjourned till I next sitting day. j COMPARISON. WITH. CANADA.! i GREATLY IN FAVOR OF NEW ZEALAND. Wellington, Last Night. In the H6use this afternoon, in the course of his speech on the soldiers' gratuity scheme, Sir Jas. Allen made a oom- j parisou of the benefits given to the: Canadian and New Zealand soldiers (pri-! vates), of Which the following is a sum-! mary:— I The Canadian gratuity, Sir James said,! was the highest of which he had any [ knowledge. It was paid on a basis that j he regarded as unsoUnd, and comparison j with the New Zealand rate was not I easy to make. A Canadian soldier who had served eleven months would receive £43 15s if he were single. A New Zealand soldier, if single, for eleven months' service would receive £25 Is 6d, but the New Zealand Soldier had received 5s per day, which was higher pay than the Canadian, the difference amounting to £7 for the period named. The New Zealander received 28 days' leave on full pay prior to discharge, representing a suiri of £7 in the case of a single man, and he also received railway privileges worth £6, bringing the total to £42 2s 6d. Comparisons for other periods would be as follows: 23 months' service, Canadian £SB 6s Bd, single, New Zealander £52 10s, raised to £BO 10a by the additions given above; 35 months' service, Canadian £72, single, New Zealander £79, raised to £114; 47 months' service, Canadian £B7, single, New Zealander £lO7, raised to £l5O. The Canadian rate did not go any higher. The New Zealand Main Body soldier, for the full period covered by the gratuity, would receive £l2B 14s gratnity, plus other benefits amounting to about £SO as compared with the Canadian rates. The Canadians had no financial assistance scheme. The Canadian scale gave an enormous advantage to officers. The Canadian married soldiers for the above periods would receive £O2 10s, £B3 6s Bd, £ll4 3s 4d, and £125. The comparison for the New Zealand married men was not given.

THE WELLINGTON R.S.A ASK FOR MORE. Wellington, Last Night. At a meeting of the Wellington Returned Soldiers' Association to-night a resolution was unanimously carried that references to the press representatives tt the meeting on September 11 were made by a minority of those present, and that the integrity of th e reporters was not in any way questioned by the association, and regretting that an attack should have been made on the representatives of the press- present. The question of the gratuities was discussed, and the following motion carried with 12 dissenters: "That this meet-* ing instructs the executive to make immediate representations to the Government, the leader of the Liberal Party and the leader of the Labor Partr, requesting them to raise" the proposed gratuity for returned soldiers to 2s a day, and that the balance of the gratuity asked for, namely 2s, he paid by the Government in war bonds, tenable for five years, and bearing interest at 5 per cent, per annum."