LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES.

Taranaki Daily News, Volume LV, Issue 133, 23 October 1912, Page 5

LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES.

THE WARD INCIDENT. MEETING OP THE COMMITTEE. By Telegraph—Press Association. Wellington, Tuesday. When the Public Accounts Committee met to-day, Sir Joseph Ward questioned the accuracy of the minutes, in that they did not include the remark of the chairman (Mr Hine) which led Sir Joseph to say on Friday "It is a downright piece of impertinence." This remark was "Answer straight, or refuse to .<mvc an answer." Mr Hine denied that he used the word "straight" until after Sir Joseph Ward's reference to impertinence. The clerk had entered on the minutes only what lie was instructed to. Sir Joseph Ward moved that the words used by the chairman be recorded on the minutes.

This was ruled out of order. Sir Joseph Ward protested. Mr Hine said that the protest wouh bo recorded.

Mr. Myers suggested that the chairman should say that he did not use the words offensively. Ultimately the minutes were elaborated, but Sir Joseph Ward protested they were still inaccurate.

The Chairman then reported, that the House had referred back to the committee its report re the words which he had declined to withdraw.

The Chairman asked Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw the words complained of. Sir Joseph refused, unless the chairman withdrew his offensive statement. Mr. Hine: "I regret very much that bir Joseph Ward has seen fit still to persist in refusing to withdraw his words." He added, if his rulings were wrong in committee thev could be referred to the Speaker of"the House. He declined to allow the report to be dis cussed.

The Minister of Finance expressed regret at the situation which had arisen and appealed to .Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw generously. If the chairman's ruling was wrong, his ruling could always he questioned in the proper way. It was not desired to impose indignities upon the chairman, nor on any member. If Sir Joseph had anv grievance, thev could subsequently consider it in a nonparty, non-political way. "I am doin» this in the kindliest spirit," said Mr! Allen. "I don't want to move any resolution, hut it is obvious that it'is my duty to move a resolution if we cannot get any further than now. Mav I ask him ar, a friend, I speak in a friendly spirit and not in anv political spirit to reconsider the situation?"

Sir Joseph: I can only thank Mr. Allen for the suggestion he has made I regret I cannot accept it, for the reason that I looked upon the chairman's stateto me as particularly offensive ait the time, and uncalled for, because I had answered the question. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to receive the censure of the House than withdraw the statement I made, believing that I wa« justified on account of what I considered the political bias of the chairman against me. I regret to say that this morning this is confirmed. Nothing more ayfiitrary, or more exceptional, in the attitude of the Chairman of Committees I do not think any Parliament in the world has ever seen. . . Then I am asked if I have any feelings against Mr. Hine His conduct could only be likened to that of a martinet, in that he would not allow us to discuss the report. I regret I cannot isee my way to withdraw the stateme.li.

DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. SIR JOSEPH WARD CENSURED. Wellington, Last Night. In the House of Representatives this afternoon •Mr. Hine presented the report of the Public Accounts Committee, stating that Sir J. (i. Ward had refused to withdraw the words complained of at the committee meeting on Fridav evening. Sir J. G. Ward detailed what had occurred that morning at the committee meeting. He stated that the official record of the committee was incomplete. At Mr. Allen's instance the report was altered. Every member of the committee who had attempted to speak on the resolution of the House had been ruled out of order with a rod of iron, and rendered absolutely dumb. The minutes of the committee should have been absolute in their exactitude. He desired to say that he had no personal grievance against the chairman of the committee. He was sorry for what had occurred, but he could not withdraw his words. He contended that the chairman's attitude was hostile throughout the proceedings, and was contrary to conciliation. He asked for the Speaker's ruling whether the chairman had power to rule that the House's reso hition could not be discussed.

The Speaker ruled that the chairman's word was final.

Mr. Allen said that the only consideration before the committee was whether SiV JO^P 1 ' Wal 'd would withdraw his words.

Sir Joseph Ward, continuing, said that the resolution of tho House had never been before the committee. The extract of the evidence put before the House last night was incomplete, and had been amplified at the instance of the Minister in charge of the committee. If party prejudice was to be carried so far as to cause a false basis on which to proceed against a public man then there was a poor lookout for public men in Mew Zealand. Fortunately there was public opinion beyond the House, which would see that fair play was dealt out to all. Mr. Hanan said that the gaa had been applied to Mr. Craigie, Mr. Myers, himself and others. The proceedings of the committee had been carried out on a Star Chamber system. Mi 1 . Allen said that if it was alleged that the chairman was unduly strict there was no doubt that feeling was manifested against him because of his actions in Parliament.

Sir Joseph Ward: That is nonsense. Mr. Allen: It is all very well to say that; but I know it is so. He contended that the right thing to do was to withdraw. Nobody could uphold Sir Joseph Ward's attitude for one moment. If he withdrew he could then challenge the chairman's ruling by resolution. He thought the chairman had behaved himself well right through the hearing. If Sir Joseph Ward withdrew he was sure Mr. lliue would meet him in a generous manner, right or wrong. The chairman had to be upheld. Messrs. Colvin, Hindmarsh and Itussell continued the debate till the dinner adjournment. ' After an adjournment of half an hour the committee resumed. The chairman asked for some motion. Mr. Allen asked Sir Joseph Ward whether, after reconsideration, he would withdraw the words. Sir Joseph Ward: I can only say, in reply to Mr. Allen, that I am exceedingly sorry I cannot see my way to do what is suggested. I have no personal feeling of any kind against Mr. Hine. I felt at the time, that his statement was very offeiir-ivc to me as a public man, but I cannot and won't press him to make it possible for me to do what I would be quite willing to do. Mr. Allen: T can do nothing else but move' that the committee report to the House that Sir Joseph Ward refuses to withdraw his words. The chairman then declined to, withdraw the words he used. Sir J. Ward said that he would not take any part in the discussion, nor v ould lie -vote on it. . , _

The motion was carried. It was also decided to supply the House with as full a report at was available of the whole incident. The House resumed at 7.80 p.m. Mr. Witty continued the debate on the Public Accounts Committee report. He thought it was a pity that the Chairman of the Committee had not met Sir Joseph Ward half way. The House had not had an opportunity of considering what had led up to the retort of Sir Joseph Ward. They had no right to pass a resolution condemning Sir Joseph Ward for what he •had done, considering the way in which matters had been conducted. Mr. Lee said that the chairman's question was one that really ought not to have been taken exception to. Mr. Hanan: It showed what he had in his mind.

Mr. Lee: Sir Joseph Ward could not take offence at a word passing in the chairman's mind. The question they had to consider, he said, was whether they were to close the door to order and open it to chaos. There was no' doubt but that the words should be withdrawn. Mr. Isitt said that Mr. Lee wanted his pound of flesh. The remark made by the Chairman of Committee meant either that Sir Joseph Ward had suggested a falsehood or suppressed a truth. He thought that if the Chairman of Committee would rise up and state that he had gone too far, he was sure that the member for Awarua would then act similarly.

Dr. Newman considered that the whole thing was sordid and squalid. Messrs. Myers, Forbes, Pearce, Ell, and McCallum continued the debate, the latter stating that Sir J. Ward would be justified in going to prison rather than withdrawing his statement. Mr. Fisher defended the action of Mr. Hine. Mr. Hine said that he had ruled in committee that before reconsideration of the report of the committee took place the remarks made by Sir. J. Ward must be withdrawn. He himself had shown no heat, and he added, "when the volcano burst I was thunderstruck. There was nothing in my manner to imply irritation or offensiveness." No challenge of his conduct had been made. He went on to say "if Sir Joseph Ward does the honourable thing he will not find me lacking in doing my share." Sir Joseph Ward: What does he mean by that? If he does not think he was offensive then he does not know what of-

fensivenras is. Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said that he could not gee his way to withdraw his words. Tie looked upon the chairman's request as a personal insult, and as a result üßed the words complained of. He would rather be censured by the House than withdraw them. The chairman of committee went out of his way to he offensive to him. He now submitted himself to any judgment the House might pronounce. Sir Joseph Ward then retired.

Mr. Massey regretted having to move a resolution in connection with the incident, though he would do the same thing if it affected a member of his own party. He moved: That this House expresses regret that the right hon. member for Awarua has not thought proper to withdraw the words taken down and reported to the House by the Public Accounts Committee. Mr. Robertson moved as an amendment, that the House, while recognising that it is the duty of a member to withdraw any expression; ruled to be unparliamentary, considers that in this casa the circumstances were such as to warrant it in proceeding no further in the matter.

•Mr. Veitch, in seconding the motion, said, to use a colloquialism, Sir Joseph was in a ditch, and it was not fair to put their feet on his neck. The amendment was not intended as> a reflection on the chairman of the committee, but had" been put forward by the independent party in the House on its own volition, the object being to settle the matter amicably.

Mr. McKenzie expressed surprise, regret, and dissatisfaction with the attitude of the fiovernment. He did not think the half-hearted amendment would be acceptable by Sir Joseph Ward. He believed that the incident would redound to the credit of Sir Joseph AVard. Mr. Robertson's amendment was lost bv 38 to 33.

After midnight the Prime Minister's motion was put and carried by 39 to 32. The Speaker requested the" Sergeant-at-Arms to request the attendance of the member for Awarua. When Sir Joseph Ward entered he was greeted with applause from the Opposition, The Speaker rend the resolution to him. Sir Joseph Ward said that had he not

felt deeply that an insult had been levelled at him he never would have taken the firm and consistent stand he had. Had Mr. Hine stated that he had not intended to he offensive he (Sir Joseph Ward) would have withdrawn. He accepted the censure from the stand-point of making a strong protest against tin partial conduct of the chairman. He

thanked those who had spoken on his behalf. He accepted the decision with equanimity. The incident then closed. <md th« House rose at 12.50.